M1 carbine USAF history question

[Bluehawk]

Picture this era and scenario (I have some questions to ask about it):

 

- 1963, BMT at Lackland AFB

- Enlisted airmen have one sit-down class about the M1 carbine, including field stripping and other basics

- Next day, to the range, with one clip of ten rounds, commence firing from a prone position to qualify (me = Sharpshooter)

- No manual of arms, no further carrying of arms, no further side, shoulder or other weapons training of any kind

 

Questions:

 

1. Why the carbine and not the Garand?

2. For how long was the carbine used in USAF BMT?

3. When was the carbine replaced by newer shoulder arms at BMT, if ever?

4. Any guess about the period of manufacture for those carbines?

 

Information of almost any sort would be appreciated. This has been puzzling me for, roughly, 55 years.

 

 

[Charlie Flick]

Questions:

 

1. Why the carbine and not the Garand?

2. For how long was the carbine used in USAF BMT?

3. When was the carbine replaced by newer shoulder arms at BMT, if ever?

4. Any guess about the period of manufacture for those carbines?

 

Information of almost any sort would be appreciated. This has been puzzling me for, roughly, 55 years.

 

Bluehawk:

 

1. The M1 Garand was never adopted by the Air Force, except for ceremonial and target/competition weapons (National Match and AFPG rifles). I don't recall ever reading an explicit USAF statement on that subject but my supposition would be that the AF requirement was basically weapons for air base security and defense. The M1 Carbine was much handier and could adequately perform that function when augmented by other weapons.

 

2. Don't know, but the M1 Carbine was replaced by the M16 rifle in AF service by the mid-1960s.

 

3. Don't know about BMT conditions, but it would only make sense that weapons used in training there would be similar to those used elsewhere in the AF.

 

4. All USGI M1 and M2 Carbines were manufactured during WW2.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

[Bluehawk]

Charlie, you have just made a senior citizen very happy.

 

Thank you

[sactroop]

The Air Forces first approval for AR-15 rifles came on May 15 1962 for a total of 8,500 rifles with an addition of 19,000 rifles the following year.

[aznation]

I know in 1984 at BMT the Air Force made us use M-16's to qualify but the caliber of the weapon we were to use was a .22 caliber. Guess they were trying to save some money. I believe they only gave us 10 rounds to qualify. Luckily, I was able to make Expert Marksman. I certainly wasn't expecting a .22 caliber, that's for sure.

[Bluehawk]

Well, we all made it through, somehow.

[shtur]

This may be the reason for familiarization with the carbine.

 

Following an attack during the Korean War, General Curtis LeMay went to Kimpo Air Base to take stock of the situation. Learning that fallen U.S. Airmen had perished with M2 Carbines in their hands after their apparent futile attempts to load them with .45 cal. service pistol magazines, the general vowed “never again.” After becoming Chief of Staff of the Air Force, he was able to make good on that promise. The general reached out to Col. Kelly to organize the first Air Force Marksmanship School at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, TX. Col. Kelly’s assignment was to 1) Train and organize competent gunsmiths; 2) Establish a marksmanship school; and 3) Organize and field the best competitive shooters in the world.

 

The above story was published in the Shooting Sports USA online magazine

[Bluehawk]

Wow...

 

The General was AF Chief of Staff during my enlistment.

 

Now I understand.

[tommatt3]

Back in 1956 I was assigned to the Air Force's 52nd Fighter Group (AD). on clearing in I was issued a M1 carbine. The weapon was kept in armament office and only checked out during base alerts. Qualification firing was done with other than your own weapon at the range. So I saw my carbine maybe four times in three years. I still have my hand receipt and issue card for it. We were issued a carbine, an ammo pouch, a magazine, and 10 rounds of ammo. We also had a rack of 10 carbines and ammo in the alert office. M1911 type pistols were also issued during alerts in the 'alert' area.

[Bluehawk]

In early VN "Advisory Campaign" our Apes had to defend within base perimeters, whilst Marines and Army looked after anything outside the wire.

 

Was the M1 all the Apes had for defense in those times?

[ikar]

Apes? Never did like that term. It was used just because at the time the official title was Air Police and I imagine they were not liked much back then either, hence the insult. Sort of like when we were called pigs. Back in 1971 my first badge did say A.P. but it was one of the last as the new Security Police job title was already in effect when I entered Tech School after basic, with the new S.P. badge arriving about mid 1971.

 

During basic we qualified with the M-16 but used standard ammo, not modified weapons and I believe fired 20 rounds.

 

The first time I saw a real carbine was during A.Z.R. class before going to S.E.A. They were used for doing the confidence course under live fire and explosive charges. We would turn in our M-16s and get a M-1 and then swap them for our assigned rifle until the next crawl. I remember mine was not much more than two broken pieces of wood held together with some telephone wire to keep the metal parts in place. After the daylight course was done we would head back to the range with our 16s for a few more hours of shooting.

Just before dark we would return to the course and reclaim our carbines and wait in the ditch until the signal was given to start. An added feature this time was slap flares and you had to remain still until they went out. Then the M-60s would open up and the motivational C-4 was used. When I got to the end and dropped into the ditch I noticed that I only had two pieces of wood held together by a sling. I had to crawl back out into the field to look for it to get it back together so I could return what they gave me. I passed a lot of people going the other way but found my missing parts and had to put it back together with tracers going over me. For motivation a few more charges went off in my area. When I got back to the end again I was met by an instructor with a not so happy look on his face demanding to know what I thought I was doing out there. I told him and he just looked at me for a minute, grunted something and walked away. Then it was out to the range for night firing.

 

We were told that the reason the school, and us were there was because of an incident during the Korean War where a base was in danger of being over run and needed to be evacuated. Aircraft left first, at least the fighters, who were assigned to provide protection until everyone left. Unfortunately, they just didn't hang around. Most people got away, except for the cops. When the base was retaken, they found them strung up in a hanger, sometimes on hooks.

The unit responsible for this was banned from ever being assigned to the States again. After a couple more tours overseas I'm pretty sure that I know who it was because I heard roughly the same story at one of my assignments where they are and they are still outside the country.

[Bluehawk]

Sorry for the insult, at the time it made a lot of sense and guess I just never grew out of it.

 

Fascinating history lesson there, thanks.

 

I read a basic report about how the air police were called upon to defend inside the wire at, e.g. Da Nang, and elsewhere - in Carl Berger's book "The United States Air Force in Southeast Asia 1961-73" > Trying to envision the fluidity of what being inside or outside a wire must have become at times, what weapons they could have had, and so forth; given that in 1963 a basic airman barely learned anything about shoulder arms...

[ikar]

No problem about that.

Most people didn't realize what kind of firepower we had available if needed. Normally all they would see was our M-16s (sometimes with a M148 grenade launcher attached), M-60s, shotguns, and S&W Model 15 pistols. What they almost never saw were the 81mm mortors, .50 cals, 174 automatic grenade launchers, 90mm recoilless rifles, claymores, M-79 launchers L.A.W.S.s and miniguns. The 90 and fifty didn't become known until the 72 Easter Offensive when we broke them out for the first time. Technically we weren't allowed 50s by the S.O.F. even though the locals had them.

 

As for jurisdiction, we had out to the perimeter and that was all. However there used to be a group of skycops that at some bases had authority up to 1/2 klick out from the fence. These guys were under Operation Safeside and had special training far above what we were given. I was fortunate enough to have a flight chief who came from there along with several other supervisors when the project shut down.

[Bluehawk]

Thanks...

 

Question: what do you estimate their arms would have been during the Advisory Campaign 1962-65, and, do you know if sky cops were assigned to MAAG-VN air force units in garrison in-country?

[cw1979]

This may be the reason for familiarization with the carbine.

 

Following an attack during the Korean War, General Curtis LeMay went to Kimpo Air Base to take stock of the situation. Learning that fallen U.S. Airmen had perished with M2 Carbines in their hands after their apparent futile attempts to load them with .45 cal. service pistol magazines, the general vowed never again. After becoming Chief of Staff of the Air Force, he was able to make good on that promise. The general reached out to Col. Kelly to organize the first Air Force Marksmanship School at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, TX. Col. Kellys assignment was to 1) Train and organize competent gunsmiths; 2) Establish a marksmanship school; and 3) Organize and field the best competitive shooters in the world.

 

The above story was published in the Shooting Sports USA online magazine

 

I have read this story is a myth in several on line articles.

 

http://www.usafpolice.org/korea.html

[Bluehawk]

I have read this story is a myth in several on line articles.

 

http://www.usafpolice.org/korea.html

Not knowing what to make of that...

[ikar]

I never heard that story. Somehow I can't imagine anyone trying to load a mag from a 1911 into a carbine, the ammo and magazine size and shape differences were very great. Anyone trained with these weapons would know it can't be done. The common sense thing wouild be to find more ammo for the weapon, find another weapon, or just keep using your pistol and keep your eyes out for possibilities.

 

As far as what their weapons might have been back in that time period, I can only guess, there was no point in going over useless history because we were pressed for training time between the three installations we used for training, Lackland, Medina Annex, and Camp Bullis. Those selected for heavy weapons would go on to Fort Hood where they had long room for the long range of those weapons. Anyway, it could have been Carbines or M-16s, depending on where your were stationed. My training books for the career field covered both rifles. This would tend to mean that they were printed during the transition period and wanted to make sure the rookie was familiar with both, just in case. I would bet that the M-16s would be sent to the war so their superior firepower could be put to the test while the carbines were kept home until they were replaced. The same thing may have happened with the machineguns too, the Browning .30 cal phased out for the M-60. Best overall guess for weapons would be the M-16, M-60, .38 caliber S&W Combat Masterpiece, and mortors. The rest of the weapons were acquired as they went along and found a need for them. or became available. For-instance we picked up the Army's old M-148 grenade launchers because they were dropping them due to problems they encountered that turned out to easy fixes. On my first tour I knew we had some Marines based outside the fence somewhere in case of trouble and we had a Army base about 5 miles out.

 

I saw an old film that was made when our base was almost complete in 1965. I showed a blue pickup that mounted a M-60 in the bed. This film had been made as a finished documentary for a briefing on the bas's status. It was never completed and still had all the mistakes included, the people being filmed not taking it seriously and so on. This had gone all the way to Washington and back, showing up in 1972 We got a chance to see it at our training building if we had the chance.

 

If any part of the Lemay/Kelly story were true, why would he have organized a course for competitive shooters to be used in a war? Granted there were shooting competitions being held between bases when I was in, but that was between the different squadrons. Where this might have been held except at the various stateside bases, I don't know, the combat school was too busy turning out as many cops trained something like the infantry as they could.

[Bluehawk]

Starting to get a better picture.

 

Back to Lackland for a moment - would anyone hazard a guess or be able to pinpoint the year when a carbine was replaced by the M16 in BMT there?

 

Would that have happened all at once - e.g. on Monday an airman fired the carbine, and a week later recruits were firing M16 - no carbines to be seen, classroom training revised, range adjustments made, etc?

 

The only shoulder weapon I had fired prior to BMT was a .22 squirrel rifle, and once, only once a 30/30 over & under. Even I would not for any reason have attempted to load a .45 mag or projectile into an M1... but can imagine someone who had never held a weapon in their hands giving that a try, maybe once.

[cw1979]

I would agree with you about the 1911 magazine in an M1 carbine. I understand stress would play a huge part but even then the Kimpo story just doesn't fit.

 

I checked the Korean War Project website and found only a handful of Air Police listed as having been killed during the war with only two killed in Korea itself. Neither were combat related deaths.

 

My thinking is the Lemay story was a rumor or ghost story that circulated around the Air Force after the Korean War; some thought it was true and it lives on.

[Bluehawk]

The General, was not a man known for exaggeration.

[flyboy53]

OK. Time to add my two cents as a former Air Force Security Police-type.

 

First, the Kimpo or K-14 massacre never occurred. It is a popular story without any real documented report, source or footnote, used as an example to all of us training as security specialists to be aware of the human cost for not being in a constant state of preparedness. This is because at the beginning of the Korean War, American and Korean forces weren't really prepared for the ground war and had to retreat with the onslaught of North Korean forces. Initially, during the Korean War, most forward-operating American air bases were subject to being overrun because the only armed personnel on the base were Air Police. The result was a rather intensive course of air base ground defense training and an effort to boost Air Police ranks from 10,000 to 39,000 in 1950 to defend the bases. But the myth persists to today and I remember being told it during my weapons orientations back in 1978.

 

Gen. Curtis Lemay, during the Korean War, was the commander of SAC. There was a real incident early in his SAC career when he discovered an unarmed sentry guarding SAC assets. In addition to being a bomber man, he was a premier marksman, and instrumental in the Air Force's shift away from traditional from things like the M-1 and the Colt 45 to things like the M-16/AR-15 and Smith & Wesson Model 10. I'm certain he had no role at K-14. Also, I believe it was the Air Force that kick-started the introduction of the ArmaLite AR-15/M-16 to the American armed forces in the early 1960s. Around that same time, the Air Force also considered things like the M-4, M-6 and the AR-5 as survival rifles -- the AR-5 specifically designed for the survival kits of the XB-70 and is the re-engineered AR-7 now sold by Henry Repeating Rifles.

 

The person in the photo is an Air Force Security Policeman assigned to the Strategic Air Command. The aircraft in the back is a KC-135 in survival orange which means this photo was taken sometime in the 1960s, early 1970s, probably in Alaska. I didn't know the Air Force had M-1 Carbines. I do know that I fired an M-1 Garand only once around the spring of 1978 for familiarization. I still remember the "zing" that you heard when the magazine clip would eject after the last round. But I was being trained on things like the S&W Model 10 Combat Masterpiece, the AR-15 (my one and only expert marksmanship ribbon), M-203 and my personal favorite, the M-60.

[Bluehawk]

[SamC130]

Picture this era and scenario (I have some questions to ask about it):

 

- 1963, BMT at Lackland AFB

- Enlisted airmen have one sit-down class about the M1 carbine, including field stripping and other basics

- Next day, to the range, with one clip of ten rounds, commence firing from a prone position to qualify (me = Sharpshooter)

- No manual of arms, no further carrying of arms, no further side, shoulder or other weapons training of any kind

 

Questions:

 

1. Why the carbine and not the Garand?

2. For how long was the carbine used in USAF BMT?

3. When was the carbine replaced by newer shoulder arms at BMT, if ever?

4. Any guess about the period of manufacture for those carbines?

 

Information of almost any sort would be appreciated. This has been puzzling me for, roughly, 55 years.

 

Actually, we fired 100 rounds, not ten, from various positions - prone, sitting, standing, etc. The reason Air Force basics were required to quality with the carbine was because it was the Air Force's standard weapon until the adoption of the M-16 in 1964. The Air Force adopted the carbine because it was lightweight and much less bulky than the M-1 and could be more easily carried by aircrews, who were the Air Force's combat troops. I went through basic in the summer of 1963. After technical training, I went to Pope AFB, NC where I qualified with the M-16 when it was introduced. Later that year, I went on flying status as an aircrew member (loadmaster) and was required to carry an M-16 as well as a pistol on all missions in SEA. Carbines were phased out as M-16s came in.

 

[Bluehawk]

"Actually, we fired 100 rounds, not ten, from various positions - prone, sitting, standing, etc. The reason Air Force basics were required to quality with the carbine was because it was the Air Force's standard weapon until the adoption of the M-16 in 1964. The Air Force adopted the carbine because it was lightweight and much less bulky than the M-1 and could be more easily carried by aircrews, who were the Air Force's combat troops. I went through basic in the summer of 1963. After technical training, I went to Pope AFB, NC where I qualified with the M-16 when it was introduced. Later that year, I went on flying status as an aircrew member (loadmaster) and was required to carry an M-16 as well as a pistol on all missions in SEA. Carbines were phased out as M-16s came in."

VERY helpful, thank you!

At age 17 in 1963, and 73+ today, my memory was or is not the best. But, I do NOT recall firing 100 rounds of anything at the range. I do recall being handed one 10-round clip and told to fire at the target. Nor was I ever issued any other weapon when being sent to permanent party.

It could be that the year 1963 was FULL of transitions of many kinds for the USAF? I didn't really start to even begin comprehending the significance of it all until well into my late life.

Many years later, by a very circuitous route, I learned from the daughter of my TI, AND from an OCS officer who had served under the man in BMT, that he was not the finest specimen. Maybe that accounts for the 10-round clip? For sure, I would remember firing 100 rounds.

To have played ANY part in the entire undertaking remains, to this day, a respectable point of honor.

[m1ashooter]

My hero General LeMay got approval for the M16 to relplace the M2 Carbine in 1962. A very good article on the process.

 

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/9/remembering-the-air-force-general-who-helped-usher-in-the-m16-rifle/

 

I remember seeing pictures of SAC Cops in the ICBM complexes carrying Carbines which would have been in the late 60's.