Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Share #1 Posted October 14, 2008 We've debated this in the past if the larger sized 3rd ID insignia seen on some original helmets is of the WWII era or post war. Photographic evidence seems to always be the key. The following picture is from a video from WWII so I apologize for the poor quality of a screen shot. However, This picture shows without a doubt, the larger size insignia being used during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share #2 Posted October 14, 2008 Following are two of my helmets with the larger insignia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted October 14, 2008 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share #4 Posted October 14, 2008 Here's another screen shot, hopefully you can see it better here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat123 Posted October 14, 2008 Share #5 Posted October 14, 2008 Great discussion Bugme! I'll get out my ruler when I get home and try to figure out the actual size of the insignia so we can compare to your examples. Okay, I might be a nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 14, 2008 Share #6 Posted October 14, 2008 Bugme, How many 3rd ID helmets do you own? 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted October 14, 2008 Bugme, How many 3rd ID helmets do you own? 3? Too many! 1 - WWI(M1917) 3 - WWII M-1's(2 fixed and one swivel) 1 - Desert Storm PASGT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRISCAN Posted October 14, 2008 Share #8 Posted October 14, 2008 Afternoon Fellas, Okay this is an easy topic to tell you the complete and whole truth about. The 2" In. x 2" In. U.S. 3rd Infantry Division Insignia is correct for World War II and post-war as well. The larger insignia for the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division comes into practice just before embarkation for Operation Anvil/Dragoon, in August 1944. The helmet insignia placement practice comes into being at Anzio in January 1944. However, at that time the insignia is smaller 1 1/4" In. x 1/1/4" In. in size. Also, they were ALL hand painted, no stenciling on the insignia for Anzio timeframe M-1's. Another aspect to the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division is placement of the divisional insignia on the M-1 helmet by the individual soldier who had two choices. 1.) On the left side only or 2.) on both sides. From the massive amounts of photographs I have of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division most wore their insignia on both sides of the M-1 helmets. As to Bugme's M-1's I'd say... #1.) Is stenciled like the Op. Anvil/Dragoon timeframe M-1 of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division, so therefore it is possibly one of them. However, the majority of the Op. Anvil/Dragoon M-1 of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division that I've seen are much neater in their application to the M-1. Nevertheless, thats not to say this particular person had a little trouble with applying the insignia. #2.) I'd say is either Bubbaized or Korean era timeframe the size to the insignia and placement in some cases for the Korean era M-1's is crazy. I've seen a number of Korean era M-1 of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division, some are like this but, you have to be weary that some reenactor or easy-green off ebay didn't get ahold of this thing. The vast majority of U.S. 3rd Infantry Division reenactors from pre-2000 were putting gargantuan sized insignia on their helmets instead of doing real in depth research into the topic. Regards, FRISCAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 14, 2008 Share #9 Posted October 14, 2008 Too many!1 - WWI(M1917) 3 - WWII M-1's(2 fixed and one swivel) 1 - Desert Storm PASGT I'll take a ww2 pot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainofthe7th Posted October 14, 2008 Share #10 Posted October 14, 2008 Friscan, Did the 3rd use helmet insignia IN Korea during the war? Thanks, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRISCAN Posted October 14, 2008 Share #11 Posted October 14, 2008 Yes. The U.S. 7th Infantry Regiment even though it was sent to Vietnam for a while was even wearing U.S. 3rd Infantry Division insignia on their M-1's then! Regards, FRISCAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share #12 Posted October 14, 2008 FRISCAN, would you have some shots of the larger insignia that you could post here. This has come up before and everyone seems to think that if there is no photographic evidence , it must have not been. Below is a picture of some of my other 3rd ID helmets. I want to point out the WWII lid which has the smaller Anzio style insignia. As for the smeared insignia on my one lid, it looks like it was done with a stencil and then smeared while wet. The other side does not look like this. Another point, both these lids with the larger insignia were picked up in the 70's before a lot of the craziness started with reproductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRISCAN Posted October 14, 2008 Share #13 Posted October 14, 2008 Easy, I've got quite a few of the larger insignia I can post. Honestly, don't see all the hub-bub if you ask me about their insignia. Its pretty straight forward. Here ya go! Heres one of the smaller insignia that I have recreated on one of my fixed bail M-1's. Heres one of Audie Murphy wearing the smaller insignia. Heres a few photos of the larger insignia: Regards, FRISCAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share #14 Posted October 15, 2008 Actually no hub-bub, just tired of arguing the issue with people who don't know. Thanks!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat123 Posted October 15, 2008 Share #15 Posted October 15, 2008 Okay, I have turned on my nerd Engineer skills and tried to come up with an approximate size of the 3rd ID insignia in the picture (for reference, I'm looking at the guy in the far left of the picture). I printed out the picture, drew a square around the insignia and measured it (0.7 cm square). I drew a line from the base of the helmet (just in front of the insignia) to the crown and measured (3 cm). I measured one of my fix bail helmet shell in the "vicinity" of the same area (16.5 cm). I calculate (using the ratio from the picture) that the insignia on that helmet is approximately 1.5 in by 1.5 in. Which is pretty darn close to what my 3rd ID helmet measures. Okay, that's my 2 cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dentino Posted October 15, 2008 Share #16 Posted October 15, 2008 Man are these some NICE lids!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRISCAN Posted October 15, 2008 Share #17 Posted October 15, 2008 FRISCAN, would you have some shots of the larger insignia that you could post here. This has come up before and everyone seems to think that if there is no photographic evidence , it must have not been. Below is a picture of some of my other 3rd ID helmets. I want to point out the WWII lid which has the smaller Anzio style insignia. As for the smeared insignia on my one lid, it looks like it was done with a stencil and then smeared while wet. The other side does not look like this. Another point, both these lids with the larger insignia were picked up in the 70's before a lot of the craziness started with reproductions. Actually, that is the Op. Anvil/Dragoon timeframe insignia in a nutshell right there. If anyone had any doubts there it is everyone, the larger insignia did exist! Regards, FRISCAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogface44 Posted October 16, 2008 Share #18 Posted October 16, 2008 The larger insignia for the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division comes into practice just before embarkation for Operation Anvil/Dragoon, in August 1944. Im sorry but I do not agree about the larger inisgnias for Dragoon. Ive seen dozens of original helmets from the field in private collections from the beaches up to the Vosges mountains, Colmar pocket... All patches I have seen were 4cm X 4cm (how many inches is that? - wll lets say they were all the size of the patches on Wildcat's helmet.) For me larger patches on helmets are either Germany occupation duty or postwar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRISCAN Posted October 16, 2008 Share #19 Posted October 16, 2008 Sorry you disagree. I've seen both in photographs from Operation Anvil/Dragoon. So, the larger insignia is there in photographic evidence. I spoke with a veteran of the US 30th IR and he told me the smaller insignia was about as standard as they came early on with the helmet insignia. However, later on(in and around the timeframe of Op. Anvil/Dragoon) is when they began stenciling the insignia and made it a tad bit larger under orders of Gen. O' Daniel. Regards, FRISCAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogface44 Posted October 16, 2008 Share #20 Posted October 16, 2008 I've seen both in photographs from Operation Anvil/Dragoon. So, the larger insignia is there in photographic evidence. Hi Jim, If you can show us the evidence/photos from op Dragoon I might agree! Been studying 3rd id since 1991 and never seen a large insignia in southern france! Gilles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogface44 Posted October 16, 2008 Share #21 Posted October 16, 2008 this is the only photo i know of a "large"patch on a 3rd id helmet (well its not that large...) in S. France I have also seen two diffwerent shades of blue on original helmets found in France. Jim pls post your pics of large patches in southern france this is very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogface44 Posted October 16, 2008 Share #22 Posted October 16, 2008 southern france average size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted October 16, 2008 Share #23 Posted October 16, 2008 NICE helmets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted October 16, 2008 Share #24 Posted October 16, 2008 OT Question for Bugme... Is the Chaplain's Uniform in Post#3 ID'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share #25 Posted October 16, 2008 OT Question for Bugme... Is the Chaplain's Uniform in Post#3 ID'd? Actually, feel free to take this one off topic, we're right back to the argument about size anyhow. As for the Chaplains uniform, yes, it's ID'd and it does have a 3rd ID connection. The Chaplains uniform belonged to Capt.(Chaplain) Frank Rustmeyer. He served with the 63rd ID, 254th IR during WWII and was attached to the 3rd ID during the Battle of the Bulge. The 254th fought in the Colmar Pocket were honored with the French Croix de Guerre for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now