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USMC M1859 Sergeants' Sword


reschenk
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M1859 Sergeant’s Swords - Horstnann Logos

I have found seven variations of the Horstmann name stamped or etched on pre-WWI USMC sergeants swords, i.e.:

Type One: The name “HORSTMANN/& SONS” stamped on the reverse ricasso and “PHILADELPHIA” on the obverse. This mark is only found on early versions with plain, unetched blades. This marking does not appear on blades with the Weyersberg king’s head marking.

 

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Type Two: The name “HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” stamped on the obverse ricasso and the Weyersburg king’s head on the reverse. This mark is also only found on plain, unetched blades.

 

post-160923-0-74809300-1504997092.jpgpost-160923-0-19543900-1504997131.jpg

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Type Three: the name “W. H./Horstman/& Sons/PHILADELPHIA” etched in italics on the base of the obverse side of the blade. The Weyersberg stamped king’s head mark is also usually present.

 

post-160923-0-98406000-1504998239.jpg

 

Type Four: The name “W. H. HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” is etched in plain block letters within a square box with a strong undecorated line above and below on the obverse base of the blade. The Weyersburg king’s head mark is usually present on the obverse or reverse ricasso.

 

post-160923-0-04562400-1504998301.jpg

 

Type Five: As above, but the lines above and below the name are decorated with a filigree design with triangular points. The Weyersburg King’s head is also usually present.

 

post-160923-0-02007300-1504998350.jpg

 

Type Six: The name “W. H./HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” etched on the obverse base of the blade within a square box with fancy corners. The Weyersburg head is often present.

 

post-160923-0-96742700-1504998437.jpg

 

Type Seven: The name “W.H. HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” is etched at the base of the obverse side within a rectangular panel with fancy corners. The top and bottom lines are arched in opposite directions to form an ovoid design. The Weyersburg King’s head is frequently found stamped on the obverse or reverse ricasso.

 

post-160923-0-93682300-1504998634.jpg

 

I suspect there may be other variations out there. Other Horstmann swords of the era Include markings similar to type 5 above, but in four lines, i.e. ‘W. H./HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA”. There is also a Horstmann marking with the words all in three arches. It is quite possible that some Marine swords exist with these and/or other markings. If any Forum members have or know of any such, I’d appreciate hearing about them.

 

I have been unable to establish a chronology of when these different variations were used. The stamped vice etched designs are obviously the older, with the type one probably being from the April 1859 contract. The etched designs all appear, although not always, on blades with the Weyersburg king’s head mark. This would seem to indicate a date before or shortly after 1883 when Weyersburg merged with Kirschbaum, another prominent Solingen cutler, to form the firm WKC which still exists. This is a bit disconcerting because Horstmann continued to receive contracts to supply Sergeant’s swords to the Marines long after 1883. You would expect to see some with later style logos, but I have not done so. As noted in an earlier thread, Ridabock also received a contract to produce Sergeants’ swords, but I have seen none with their name either. Where are all these post-1883 swords?

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Thanks! Actually, I've sent Stuart a draft of an article on the M1859 NCO sword some time ago, but haven't heard back from him on whether it makes the cut. It will probably depend largely on whether he perceives it will be of enough interest to his readership. Here's hoping...

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Excellent research! You have compiled a considerable amount of new information on these USMC NCO swords. I learn something new with each posting.

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  • 3 weeks later...

In researching the USMC M1859 Sergeants' sword, I found the Marine Uniform regulations continued to call for senior Staff NCO to carry their swords with slings vice with a frog right up until the start of WWII. The 1937 reg stated: "When sword is worn with the dress or blue undress, the dress belt with slings shall be worn by noncommissioned officers of the first grade, and the dress belt with dress frog by all other enlisted men." The reg also included this illustration of regulations swords, scabbards and knots:

 

attachicon.gifUniform Reg 1937 illustration comp.jpg

 

In thinking about this, I was taken back a bit to realize i had never seen a Marine NCO sword with the post WWI thin blade in a scabbard intended for wear with slings, nor had I ever even seen a picture of such a creature other than the one in the regs. Do any of you have one or, for that matter, have you ever seen one? If so, I'd appreciate hearing about it and if possible getting a photo.

 

Thanks.

 

I would like to make one more appeal to anyone who might have an example of a thin-bladed post-WWI M1859 NCO sword with a scabbard configured with carrying rings for wear with a sling rather than a frog as most NCO swords. I have finally found one example, a Horstmann sword from the early 1920s, but the scabbard is in poor condition, missing about a quarter of its leather cover.

 

post-160923-0-60681700-1506390324_thumb.jpgpost-160923-0-60173500-1506390498_thumb.jpg

 

I am gathering photos for illustrations for a magazine article, and it would be great if I could get a picture of a better example. Thanks.

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Regarding the numbers engraved on the drag of these swords, the answer may lay in the Corps' regs regarding organizational property and custody and accounting for serially numbered organization property. The swords had no serial numbers etched or stamped when produced and reaching the units unlike rifles and pistols.

 

The NCO swords belonged to the unit, not to the Marine enlisted man using them, and he was responsible for the care and custody of that sword while it was assigned to him. Officer Swords were purchased and owned by the officer and usually had his name inscribed. I'll bet somewhere in the archives there's a copy of Regulations establishing this. Anyway just my 2 Cents of a theory. Semper Fi........Bob

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Regarding the numbers engraved on the drag of these swords, the answer may lay in the Corps' regs regarding organizational property and custody and accounting for serially numbered organization property. The swords had no serial numbers etched or stamped when produced and reaching the units unlike rifles and pistols.

 

The NCO swords belonged to the unit, not to the Marine enlisted man using them, and he was responsible for the care and custody of that sword while it was assigned to him. Officer Swords were purchased and owned by the officer and usually had his name inscribed. I'll bet somewhere in the archives there's a copy of Regulations establishing this. Anyway just my 2 Cents of a theory. Semper Fi........Bob

 

I have no doubt these numbers are some form of inventory control number. Initially I thought they were probably rack numbers or some other unit-assigned numbers, but after seeing a quite a number of these. I'm now inclined to think they were applied at the Quartermaster level. For one thing, the numbers seem to be of fairly consistent style and are apparently unique - you don't see two of the same number in somewhat different style as you would expect if each unit was applying inventory control numbers to its own swords. Whether the numbers were applied at a central location, e.g. the QMMC location in D.C. or the Assistant QM in Philadelphia, of possibly at more than one QM location, I do not know. My guess would be the assistant QM in Philadelphia since he took initial receipt of most, if not all, USMC sergeants' swords.

 

I have spent a quite a lot of time at the National Archives researching the M1859 Sergeant's sword. There may be a reg somewhere dealing with the inventory control numbers, but if so, I haven't found it yet. If anyone has, I'd really be interested in what it had to say.

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I agree totally with you that the numbers probably originated at the QM Dept rather than at the individual units using them. The consistency of the numbering seems to conclusively support this. My M1859 sword looks identical to Suwaneetrader's sword and has the Type 7 Horstmann logo you show. The scabbard has the lug-type hanger and unfortunately is damaged condition, missing about 10 inches of leather from the center of the scabbard. Both metal parts are present and their are no numbers on either, nor is there any number on the sword hilt? Wondering if you have identified the dates that the various Horstmann logos appeared? Great research on your part which I agree should be published. Thank you......Semper Fi.......Bob

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Wondering if you have identified the dates that the various Horstmann logos appeared? Great research on your part which I agree should be published. Thank you......Semper Fi.......Bob

 

I wish I could, but I really don't have any good evidence which would allow dating. I suspect they may be in somewhat the order in which I posted them, but this is mainly based on unsupported "feeling". Type 1 is the exception - it is almost certainly the earliest because we have an Orderly Sergeant's sword which is so marked which we know is almost certainly one of the November 1859 delivery. Type 2 is also very early and only appears on unetched sword blades. Type 3 and 4 seem to be cleaner and less ornate, which I, very possibly incorrectly, feel is earlier. However Type 5 may actually be earlier since it appears on M1859's with generic etching which are believed to predate those with etching designs including the initials "U.S.M.C.". It is quite possible that some of these styles were used concurrently. Anyone have any ideas? It would be great if we had some examples we could definitely date.

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Thanks, Richard. I also just noticed that my blade has a different 'U.S.M.C.' etching style than on the previous, but with the same logo? Bob

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  • 10 months later...

My article on the M1859 sergeants' sword just came out in the October 2018 issue of Man-at Arms. I would like to thank the members of this Forum who helped me gather the info I needed to write this article, especially Suwanneetrader and Warguy.

 

In the article I do not discuss the various versions of the Horstmann name/address found on the swords because I still haven't enough info to really judge what, if anything, they tell us about the relative age of the swords. As discussed above, I suspect they may be able to help date the swords, but more info is needed. Unfortunately, none of the USMC swords I have seen have been inscribed nor have any had a good provenance which would allow us to date them with any confidence. One approach which might work is to compare them with Horstmann M1850 foot officer swords which seem to use many, if not all, the same addresses. If any of you has an inscribed/dated M1850 foot officer sword with the same name/address as appears on the Marine swords, I'd appreciate the details. Thanks.

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  • 11 months later...

Just acquired another Marine sergeant's sword with inventory control numbers in the 100s-200s range. This one has "No. 228" stamped on the hilt and drag blade. The sword is in a staff NCO-configuted scabbard (for wear with slings vice frog) with a leather-covered steel scabbard. The sword blade is stamped with a Weyersberg king's head mark so it was likely made before Weyersberg merged with Kirschbaum to form WKC in 1883. I suspect this is an older sword which was mated with a replacement scabbard in the late 1800/early 1900 at which time the sword and scabbard were marked with the inventory control number.

 

post-160923-0-48434800-1563575213_thumb.jpgpost-160923-0-21244900-1563575617_thumb.jpg

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Here is the numbered drag:

 

post-160923-0-67081900-1563576163_thumb.jpg

 

Anyone have any other numbers to add or any info/theories on when/where/why?

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  • 3 months later...

Type Three: the name “W. H./Horstman/& Sons/PHILADELPHIA” etched in italics on the base of the obverse side of the blade. The Weyersberg stamped king’s head mark is also usually present.

 

attachicon.gifHorstmann Mark Type 3 1.jpg

 

Type Four: The name “W. H. HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” is etched in plain block letters within a square box with a strong undecorated line above and below on the obverse base of the blade. The Weyersburg king’s head mark is usually present on the obverse or reverse ricasso.

 

attachicon.gifHorstmann Mark Type 4 1.jpg

 

Type Five: As above, but the lines above and below the name are decorated with a filigree design with triangular points. The Weyersburg King’s head is also usually present.

 

attachicon.gifHorstmann Mark Type 5 1 comp.jpg

 

Type Six: The name “W. H./HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” etched on the obverse base of the blade within a square box with fancy corners. The Weyersburg head is often present.

 

attachicon.gifHorstmann Mark Type 6 1 comp.jpg

 

Type Seven: The name “W.H. HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” is etched at the base of the obverse side within a rectangular panel with fancy corners. The top and bottom lines are arched in opposite directions to form an ovoid design. The Weyersburg King’s head is frequently found stamped on the obverse or reverse ricasso.

 

attachicon.gifHorstmann Mark Type 7 3.jpg

 

I suspect there may be other variations out there. Other Horstmann swords of the era Include markings similar to type 5 above, but in four lines, i.e. ‘W. H./HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA”. There is also a Horstmann marking with the words all in three arches. It is quite possible that some Marine swords exist with these and/or other markings. If any Forum members have or know of any such, I’d appreciate hearing about them.

 

I have been unable to establish a chronology of when these different variations were used. The stamped vice etched designs are obviously the older, with the type one probably being from the April 1859 contract. The etched designs all appear, although not always, on blades with the Weyersburg king’s head mark. This would seem to indicate a date before or shortly after 1883 when Weyersburg merged with Kirschbaum, another prominent Solingen cutler, to form the firm WKC which still exists. This is a bit disconcerting because Horstmann continued to receive contracts to supply Sergeant’s swords to the Marines long after 1883. You would expect to see some with later style logos, but I have not done so. As noted in an earlier thread, Ridabock also received a contract to produce Sergeants’ swords, but I have seen none with their name either. Where are all these post-1883 swords?

 

Since posting this note two years ago I have had the opportunity to examine a many additional M1859 sergeants’ swords. In doing so I have not been able to identify any additional types of Horstmann name/address markings. In a way this is problematic. For all other series of Horstmann swords there is an evolution in the design of the Horstmann name markings on the blades, with those made later in the century tending to be the name and city in more-or-less rectangular boxes

 

post-160923-0-14720900-1572363355.jpgpost-160923-0-63845500-1572363479.jpg

 

 

Although the Marines continued to buy Sergeants’ swords on a regular basis in the post-CW era, usually in lots of 20s or 30s annually, we see no evolution in the blade markings. Minor changes were made to the hilt design, i.e. the oak leaves on the pommel were replaced by laurel leaves, rosettes were added to the foliate design on the guard, and the squiggly line was removed from the quillon. The blades, however, remained unchanged. Only the five etched name/address formats shown above were used. These designs all date from the CW or immediate post-CW period. We know this because they all also appear on Horstmann Army M1850 foot officers’ swords, the model from which the sergeant’s sword was cloned. These M1850s were discontinued in 1872 which gives us an end-date for the initial use of the formats. Over half the sergeants’ swords were purchased after the CW ended, so if later formats were used, they should be well represented among the survivors, but there are apparently none.

 

I have a theory which might explain the situation. It is reported that after the CW Horstmann had a large supply of surplus Army M1850 and the Navy M1852 officers’ sword blades. It was purportedly still using these surplus blades to make up swords for differing customers well into the 20th century. Is it possible Horstmann had a similar situation with M1859 sergeants’ blades, and it just continued using these old-stock blades for the next 30 – 40 years? The obvious problem with this theory is that conventional wisdom has long held that “U.S.M.C.” etching was added to Marine enlisted swords as part of the uniform changes instituted in 1875.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think conventional wisdom is wrong. Here is why:

 

- I have seen no contemporary documentary or other evidence supporting the 1875 date. It is often claimed the Uniform Regulation of 1875 directed the inclusion of the initials “U.S.M.C,” on enlisted blades. It does not. The reg is quite explicit about the design of the newly restored Mameluke and the requirement to include the words “United States Marine” on the blade. In the case of enlisted swords, however, it just states they are to be IAW those samples in the Quartermaster HQ USMC’s Office. I have done a thorough review of USMC Quartermaster correspondence as well as naval contracting records in the National Archives and have found nothing addressing the etching on sergeants’ swords. (I did, however find strong evidence that the addition of the “U.S.M.C.” initials on musicians’ swords, which was also purportedly directed in 1875, didn’t occur until 1887.) Conventual wisdom also states that generic etching may have been added to enlisted swords as early as 1872. This earlier etch design did not include the Iconic “U.S.M.C.” initials or any specific American motifs, e.g. a Federal eagle. Swords produced before that would have had plain polished steel blades with no decoration.

 

- The evidence of the swords themselves does not support the conventional wisdom. Well more than half the sergeants’ swords procured by the Marine Corps were purchased before 1872, the earliest date, according to conventional wisdom, that etching was applied. If so, one would expect at least half of the survivors would have no etching. This is clearly not the case. From my observations, less than 10% of surviving wide-bladed M1859 sergeants’ swords have undecorated blades. The vast majority have exactly the same design as Horstmann M1850 Army swords with the exception of the substitution of “U.S.M.C.” for the “U.S.” on the reverse side of the blade. Like their Army counterparts, most Marine blades are also stamped with the Weyersberg king’s head mark.

 

- There have been some anecdotal stories indicating an earlier date for etched blades than 1875. One I recall involved a sword with an engraved blade which purportedly had belonged to an NCO who died in 1868.

Based on the above, I believe etched blades for Marine sergeants were adopted long before the conventional 1875 date, probably some time during the Civil War. If so, it is conceivable Horstmann had surplus blades at the end of the war that it continued to use for sergeants’ swords produced in the post-war period.

 

What do you folks think of this theory?

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I think the theory of etched blades earlier for the nco use holds water. It was likely much easier to just change grips and scabbards to differentiate from the officers swords during the decades between mameluke use. Plain blades being of fewer imported runs than originally expected and Horstmann's shop as a mounter. Maybe compare the growth of the corp and increase in nco numbers vs officers during the 1860s and 1870s.against projection of Horstmann's import quantities.

 

Cheers

GC

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I thought I would cut and paste the photos of my sword from the other thread to this one to keep them together.

 

Attached Images
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Hopefully this will add to the discussion.

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Sarge,

 

- Is your sword stamped with the Horstmann name on the reverse ricasso? It looks like a Horstmann procuct and, although Horstmann used primarily Weyersberg blades on his Marine swords, he is known to have also used Emerson & Silver Keystone Works blades on some of his early products, e.g. the musicians swords.

 

- Because of the scabbard, some would question whether your sword is a Marine NCO sword or a low-end Army foot officer's sword. The Uniform Regulation of 1859 specified sergeants would wear their sword with a sliding frog, and your scabbard has rings for wear with slings. By 1875, however, rules had changed. Most Sergeants still used frogs, but staff NCOs, e.g. Sergeants Major and Quartermaster Sergeants, were now required to wear their swords with slings. I'm not sure when this change was made. Other than the scabbard, your sword certainly bears all the hall marks of an early Marine sergeant's sword: it has a plain, unetched polished steel blade, the grip is leather rather than shagreen, and the hilt and scabbard mounts show no sigh of ever having been gilt.

 

- If this is a Marine sword, it is the only one I have seen with a keystone mark. I suspect, however, the other unetched Marine sergeants' swords without the Weyersberg king's head stamp were also likely made with E&S blades.

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My sword is not stamped with the Horstmann name or logo on the ricasso. The only mark is the Emerson & SIlver Keystone Works keystone. I fully agree that this is a Civil War period Horstmann sword made with a keystone blade from the local E&S foundry. It could be a wartime USMC NCO sword that was upgraded with a new scabbard in 1875 or it could be an overrun that was sold as a low cost M1850 Foot Officer sword by Horstmann during the war. Either scenario is possible. An interesting sword none the less.

 

Perhaps someone will come along and read this and find another one like this sword in their collection.

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Supporting the possibility that your sword is a USMC sword is the fact the scabbard is exactly the same as the ones used on etched-bladed Marine Staff NCO swords. Notice the design of the mounts including the number and locations of the lines on the below Horstmann SNCO sword:

 

post-160923-0-56640400-1572821457_thumb.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here are a couple more scabbard drag markings from the same series as in the above post:

 

attachicon.gifScabbard Invertory 127.JPGattachicon.gifHorstmann Sergeant 208 127 1.jpg

 

No. 127:​ This has a wide leather-covered steel body with frog stud and large number on drag. Good condition but leather tear about 2” above bottom mount, seam open several inches above tear. The sword was marked No. 208 on the guard. It was sold in the June 2010 Heritage Auction as LOT #52519.

 

attachicon.gifScabbard Invertory 192 1.jpgattachicon.gifScabbard Invertory 192 2.jpg

 

 

 

No. 192: Wide leather-covered steel body with frog stud and large number on drag. Good condition. Sword hilt also marked No. 192 on guard. Ricasso marked with “W.H./HORSTMANN/& SONS/PHILADELPHIA” in square box with diamond corners and the Weyersberg King’s head. US Militaria Forum member Still-a-Marine posted it in June 2010 http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/78157-early-usmc-nco-sword.

 

If we can compile enough examples of these markings, perhaps we can figure out just what they mean. They seem to be inventory control marks, but just when were they applied, where, in any particular order, etc.

 

 

I just acquired another USMC M1859 sergeant's sword. It is the wide-bladed variety with “U.S.M.C.” etched on the blade with the type 4 address and the Weyersberg king’s head. It is housed in one of the late leather-covered steel scabbards and is marked with inventory control numbers on the quillon and on the scabbard drag.. Unfortunately the numbers don’t match. The quillon is stamped “No. 151” and the drag “No. 206”. (Such mismatches seem more the rule than the exception.)

 

post-160923-0-33184800-1573527459_thumb.jpgpost-160923-0-64022500-1573527888_thumb.jpgpost-160923-0-58398700-1573528558_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

I have seen enough of these now to begin to develop some thought on the topic. I notice the swords marked with the inventory control marks in the format “No. xxx" are all housed in the leather-covered steel scabbards. Most, if not all, have Weyersberg blades and seem to include the full range of etched Horstmann name/address formats. Something I have just recently noticed is that the blades look to have been nickel plated at some point. I also note the leather on the grips is usually in very good condition for their age.

 

What I’m beginning to think is that at some point, probably around the turn of the century, the Marines decided to refurbish a batch of its old sergeants’ swords. This may have involved replacing their old all-leather scabbards with the newer leather-covered steel scabbards, cleaning and nickel plating the blades, and perhaps rewrapping the grips. The refurbished swords were then stamped with inventory control numbers before being issued. (The lowest number I have seen is No. 94, the highest No. 228.) If they did this, it would be somewhat analogist to the Army’s actions at about the same time to refurbish old M1860 cavalry swords and nickel plate their scabbards for use by Army NCOs, replacing the M1840.

 

Do any of you forum members have or know of swords with inventory control numbers in the “No. xxx” format? If so, I would appreciate it if you could share the details with me. Which numbers? Have the blades been plated? Do any have all leather-bodied scabbards or are only metal-bodied scabbards so marked? Thanks for your help.

post-160923-0-84176500-1573527949_thumb.jpg

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A couple of things to keep in mind.

 

Horstmann had huge stocks of blades.

 

Leather covered steel scabbards go back at least to the 1860s.

 

Also. Bannerman.

 

Cheers

GC

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Glen,

 

I have commented before on the possibility Horstmann had a large stock of old USMC sergeants’ sword blades on hand. This is a possible explanation for why we do not see these swords using later formats of the Horstmann name and address on the blade. We know from USMC Quartermaster records the Marines were still buying sergeants’ swords from Horstmann in the 1880s and 1890s, but I have never seen one with a blade marked with the name and address in a format typical of that period. So you may be right. These swords in steel scabbards stamped with this style inventory control numbers may be new production using old parts rather than refurbished old swords. In the absence of contemporary records, I’m not sure how we could tell.

 

Regarding the scabbards, do you have evidence that leather-covered steel was used as early as the 1860s, and specifically that Horstmann was using them? My understanding has been these were a late-century product and the technology for extruding the metal bodies like used on the Marine swords did not exist in the mid-century time frame. I’m certainly no expert on metal fabrication, so I may well be wrong and am certainly open to learning more.

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re leather on steel in the 1860s, the PS Justice militia swords for an example

 

post-55097-0-54392900-1573588511_thumb.jpg

post-55097-0-18346600-1573589031_thumb.jpg

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post-55097-0-56869900-1573589197.jpg

 

Also regard Hamilton's history of Ames (in said book) and the paragraphs regarding the difficulties in drawing the supplied steel as too hard/brittle and having to de-carb that batch of received sheet steel. Iirc, without going to the book, the timeline was the late 1850s. Somewhere in my image bank leather covered Ames swords but I'm not remembering the timeline for theirs. Definitely drawing tubes by the 1860s (per the book).

 

Emerson nco and musician sword scabbards (imo German scabbards, as I suspect the Justice scabbards were as well)

 

Cheers

GC

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