42nd Div USAF Uniform with CIB

[bbmilitaria]

Here's an odd bird from a WWII 42nd Div vet that went into the Air Force during the change over. The blouse and trousers are both 1949 dated. Came with his dog tags and his discharge which confirms the unit and the awards on the jacket. My question is, how long did the USAF allow former Army members to wear Army unit insignia and combat decorations? My guess is the Army SSI did not last long. Any opinions welcome. Thanks, Mike

 

 

[Bluehawk]

Now, THAT ^ is a first, at least to me.

 

Amazing!

[Captainofthe7th]

I have to agree with Hawk, I have NEVER seen that before. That is really, really cool. Definately a keeper.

 

Rob

[bbmilitaria]

The uniform had been haning exposed in a closet for many years and was covered in dust and dirt. Most of it brushed out but there are some stains and moth nips. I didn't believe what I was looking at until I read the discharge.

[Teamski]

I'm sorry, but I can't see that being anywhere near legit. There is no way he would of been in the 42nd Inf Div transferring to the USAF and then retaining his unit on the left shoulder. I'm sorry, but it doesn't look good to me at all. Where is his collar insignia? Are the stripes merrowed? They look it.

 

-Ski

[vintageproductions]

During the transitional time there were some real odd ball uniform combintaions. We just had one for a pilot that has a Persian Gulf Command shoulder patch.

[Teamski]

Well, I guess anything goes. Was the patch on his left shoulder?

 

-Ski

[Bluehawk]

What worries me is that the uniform was current two years AFTER transition began... that may be a possibility even for Uncle Sam, but it would be a stretch, especially from infantry (and the Rainbow Division to boot!) to USAF.

 

More needs to be known...

[Wailuna]

WWII era 42nd Infantry Division was inactivated June, 1946, and if this USAF SSgt were wearing a 42nd ID SSI on his right sleeve to signify wartime service overseas with the 42nd ID, well, okay, maybe. But left sleeve SSI indicated current unit of assignment while the USAF still condoned their wear (link here to see numerous examples of SSI on USAF uniforms in the 1950s). 42nd ID was allotted to the New York National Guard in March 1947 and to see its SSI on this uniform implies that this USAF SSgt was assigned to an Army National Guard division, which was not on extended active duty during the 1950s....now it becomes a real stretch. We need to see what the discharge says...will you be posting it here, bbmilitaria?

[BEAST]

Interesting uniform. What about an air liaison assigned to the 42nd Division or possibly Air Guard? IIRC, it was not until the 1950's that all of the Air Guard units had been split from under the Army headquarters. Indiana was the first state to organize its Air Guard seperate from the Army Guard and that was in 1949.

 

"December 1949. Indiana became the first state to name a chief of the newly authorized air section of its state National Guard headquarters staff with the appointment of Brig. Gen. Oliver H. Stout to that post."

 

So possible this is an early Air National Guard uniform that reflects the transition from the AAF to Air Force, but not the reorganization of the Air NAtional Guard as a seperate force.

 

 

BTW, to see more USAF uniforms with Army SSI, go to this link: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=28387&hl=

[Wailuna]

...So possible this is an early Air National Guard uniform that reflects the transition from the AAF to Air Force, but not the reorganization of the Air NAtional Guard as a seperate force...

That is an interesting hypothesis, Beast. If taken at face value, the SSgt might have been an early Air Force member of New York National Guard before its Army/Air Force split was fully organized and somehow connected with the 1950s era NYNG 42nd ID. Being in National Guard service could also help to explain the rather abrupt conclusion of the service history reflected by the ribbons present here (WWII Victory Medal = 1945/46). We really need to see that discharge paper bbmilitaria has (although if it a WWII WD AGO 53-55 it won't prove much about this USAF uniform).

[TLHSS]

To possibly add some fuel to the fire. Notice the left shoulder.

 

Thanks,

Tim

 

[doyler]

Nice uniform Mike.I would classify this as one of the veteran anomolies.He most likely wore his patch as he did during the war.I have an group to a guy who has a 25th Division patch on right sleeve of an olive drab ike and the color AF chevrons.Some where I have a pic of a guy wearing a blue ike and barely visible on the right shoulder is his Ranger Bn scroll.

 

I also like the overseas service bars in silver on the cuff.In my opinion would coincide with his service in the 42nd during the war and with his campaign stars.

 

RON

[bbmilitaria]

I love items like these that get people all roused up and out of their usual comfort zones. You know the old collectors adage, "If I ain't seen it , it can't be true". This is what is so fascinating about collecting militaria, the variation is endless. The discharge I was able to get from the family was for his WWII sevice, discharged out of the 242nd Inf at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas in 1946. He then returned home to Kansas and entered the USAF and as far as the family could remember, never left Kansas while in the USAF. Active duty or Air Guard, I don't know and the kids were too young to remember. This was purchased at the estate auction in the late 1990's for $15. If it was put together by the family, they did not get much return on their investment and I find it hard to believe that the vet would dishonor his WWII sevice by faking USAF service. Also, the stripes are cut edge and there were no collar disks when sold at the auction. I could easily add them, but I thought that was discouraged by members of this forum. That is one awesome photo TLHSS, I wish I had a photo to go with mine, but I take 'em how I get 'em.

[Teamski]

To possibly add some fuel to the fire. Notice the left shoulder.

 

Thanks,

Tim

 

 

 

Ahhhh....

[TLHSS]

Ahhhh....

 

 

Ski ....

 

I never would have believe this combo without seeing the picture ....

 

Have a great weekend ...

 

Tim

[Wailuna]

...Here's an odd bird from a WWII 42nd Div vet that went into the Air Force during the change over. The blouse and trousers are both 1949 dated...

...To possibly add some fuel to the fire. Notice the left shoulder...

Many thanks to you gentlemen for adding to our store of knowledge of this obscure subject. Don't stop now. Add your items to the pinned reference topic entitled "Post WWII, 50's & 60's US Air Force uniform photos, transitional, Korea, Vietnam era USAF" (link here). That way we will be able to find and refer to them again long after this thread vanishes into the past.

[trenchbuff]

Man, that is so cool!!! Only on this forum do you learn these things.

[KurtA]

It's too weird not to be legit. I agree with Wailuna's late 1940's New York National Guard theory.

Kurt

[Bluehawk]

Might as well add this link to the thread, to keep things together.

 

Link:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=28387&hl=

 

Great result, fascinating anomaly.

 

Now I've got something to refer my Army critics to!

[mvmhm]

I have an Air Force green Ike jacket with blue and silver SSgt chevrons and a 20th Air Force patch on it...I also have a BLUE Ike jacket that has a 6th Army patch and a CIB, as well as the usual ribbons for service in the Pacific. These patches were an optional uniform item...if everyone would please open their November 1950 edition of The Airman's Handbook....I direct your attention to page 215, which reads:

 

"Shoulder Sleeve Insignia; (Patches) (Officers, Warrant Officers, nd Airmen) Left Shoulder -(Optional for wear) Unit of Overseas war service."

 

Then again on page 216:

 

"Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. The "arm patch" of the unit of oversea war service is the only shoulder sleeve insignia authorized for wear on the new Air Force blue uniform. It may be worn on the coat, jacket, or shirt centered one-half inch below the uppermost sleeve and shoulder seam of the left sleeve. Its wear is optional."

 

Unfortunately it doesn't establish a wear-out date.....

 

 

Mark sends

[Bluehawk]

Wow... nice info.

[bbmilitaria]

Great info mvmhm, I'll have to get a copy of that manual and stick it in the uniform pocket for future generations of collectors. The mystery can be put to rest.

[mvmhm]

Actually, let me do some digging around, I might have another copy buried around here someplace.....

 

 

Mark sends

[Wailuna]

...November 1950 edition of The Airman's Handbook

That is just what we needed, mvmhm: A published reference. Good work! Your citation explains left-sleeve wear of seemingly impossible SSI on USAF Blues in the 1950's, while it does not rule out left- and/or right-sleeve SSI on USAF transitional Army OD uniforms. Excellent. Thanks very much.

 

P.S. I am also in the market for an early edition Airman's Handbook...if you find two, I am interested, let me know.