Debunking the "J. O'Brian" hallmark - It is Josiah Odence

[rustywings]

For many years I've believed the J/O hallmark depicted on these WWII era USAAF Pilot wings and USN Aviator badges represented the "J. O'Brian Badge Company" of Madison, New Jersey. On some military websites and social forums, the same hallmark has also been referenced with a slightly different spelling of "J. O'Brien."

 

 

[rustywings]

A few days ago, long-time friend and fellow collector, Bill Miller, shared the image posted below of a recent purchase he made. Now Bill didn't purchase this item for the cheap little ship pin, but rather the information printed on this eye-opening display card securing the pin!

 

This is the first time I've seen ill-refutable information identifying the "J/O" hallmark at the top of the card with the name "JOSIAH ODENCE - MFG & DISTRIBUTOR OF MILITARY INSIGNIA - NEW YORK & SAN DIEGO" printed on the same item.

 

Maybe some of you can add to the story of this long standing hallmark misidentification? Like many of us, I first encountered the "J. O'Brian" hallmark lore on page 67 in the book "US Silent Service - Dolphins & Combat Insignia," published in 2001... and we accepted it as accurate info from a solid source.

 

Unfortunately, what was likely a simple and honest identification mistake in an otherwise excellent submarine badge reference, was only exacerbated when another author came along a few years later and failed to check his source before copying the same error into his book, "Field Guide to Hallmarks of U.S. Military Insignia (FM 82-102)."

 

I want to thank Bill Miller for sharing his important find. I believe this fresh hallmark information will be of interest to many wing collectors and submarine badge collectors alike.

[Brian Keith]

Very Nice! Pretty much locks that up. I love to find carded insignia. Great info, thanks for posting it. Now, we all have to print it out and put it in our books!<br />BKW

[5thwingmarty]

Very nice to have something like this come to light and clarify a manufacturer like this. I did a websearch for Josiah Odence and found a couple of military related post cards attributed to them but they did not have the hallmark/insignia that I could see. I also found a roll-up backgammon board on ebay made by the J. Odence Co. but it didn't have the hallmark/insignia either.

 

Marty

[pfrost]

There is a newspaper report of a building (215, 4th Ave, Brooklyn, NY) being leased to a Josia Odence for sale of novelties in the 30's or so.

 

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/52702742/

(so a search for Josia Odence).

[pfrost]

Google mapping... It appears to be a bodega now, but this is likely where he was in 1938. Right at the entrance to a subway station selling novelties. If this is the same guy.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/215+4th+Ave,+Brooklyn,+NY+11215/@40.6772337,-73.9830942,3a,75y,115h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spq4EDPDFn5euryR2cKA_kg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dpq4EDPDFn5euryR2cKA_kg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D115.72984%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c25baab56bb30b:0x55757d4c7827819d!8m2!3d40.677162!4d-73.982899!6m1!1e1

[Tim B]

Russ,

 

Very nice!

 

Amazing that we are still uncovering these mistakes and discovering new manufacturers after so many years of just accepting what someone else once said.

 

What do you think of this one?

 

Tim

[B-17Guy]

Awesome!

[bschwartz]

Here's a link I found that talks about a Josiah Odence company being formed in 1948. http://california-companies.com/josiah-odence-inc.4630.company.v2#top_info When I shared the link with some fellow collectors they rightly pointed out to me that just because the company wasn't incorporated until 1948 doesn't mean it didn't exist prior to that date just that it hadn't been incorporated until then. I thank Bill and Russ for bringing this information to light. Always good to correct the prevailing wisdom when new information comes along. And great eye Bill for finding that card!

[Bluehawk]

Not for nothing, then, may a curator's life be sufficiently long.

[rustywings]

Russ,

 

Very nice!

 

Amazing that we are still uncovering these mistakes and discovering new manufacturers after so many years of just accepting what someone else once said.

 

What do you think of this one?

 

Tim

 

There were several companies that used the initials "GEMSCO." I believe the "Gordon/Elkies" reference is tied to an old radio, television and consumer electronics business.

 

The "GEMSCO" most militaria collectors encounter represents the "General Embroidery & Military Supply Co." Brooklyn, New York.

 

[Tim B]

Russ,

 

That could be as I have seen the General Embroidery Logo which I thinks dates from ~ 1921.

 

[Josh B.]

The GEMSCO disambiguation was discussed some time ago in the reference thread of that name when I updated it with a similar image. Definitely not general merchandising as published in Jones and elsewhere. Fantastic detective work on the JO mark!

[bobgee]

Great stuff! Life is extra good when we learn something new! Bob

[WittWorldWide.com]

Great Work Folks... I've had a J/O Wing posted, and although it doesn't change the rarity, it is nice to have a clear ID, as the previous was the long accepted.

 

And lesson learned, as a great number of books that many see as "Bibles" have mistakes. Most Honest, but many not so...

 

Best, Rich

 

[Airborne-Hunter]

Glad to see this made it to the forum. Been working with Bill and Dave Kaufman at asmic...it should be in one of their upcoming publications. I've found some more great material, but still need permission to use it (long story). Best ABN

[Josh B.]

Glad to see this made it to the forum. Been working with Bill and Dave Kaufman at asmic...it should be in one of their upcoming publications. I've found some more great material, but still need permission to use it (long story). Best ABN

 

I also have an image that significantly adds to the discussion, but requires formal permission prior to public sharing. Maybe we've sourced the same thing?

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Bringing this thread back up. Did either Josh or Airborne hunter get permission to share what they found about Josiah Odence?

[rathbonemuseum.com]

A photo of Josiah Odence in San Diego in 1941

[rathbonemuseum.com]

1940 City directory listing for San Diego for the address of the building in the above photo. Ship's supplies. Same description as their Brooklyn location since the 1930s.

[teufelhunde.ret]

Great news for the collector base.

[Josh B.]

Bringing this thread back up. Did either Josh or Airborne hunter get permission to share what they found about Josiah Odence?

 

We both found the same source.

 

In short (from my point of view), it's far too much trouble to get permission to post here. I'd have to pay the museum who holds the artifact in question for using their image. (To get the image was free, to use it in a public way is not.) Then on top of it, it's unclear who holds the copyright to the images on the original item pictured in the museum image, making me (or the forum) potentially at risk for infringement.

 

If I ever get around to writing that book one day, maybe it will become worth the trouble.

 

Cheers,

Josh

[Bluehawk]

"... it's far too much trouble to get permission to post here."

 

 

Since 2008, I have not found that to be the case.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Josh, can you email me at [email protected] to give me some more detail so I can start a separate work around what you have encountered? I understand your concerns.

[pfrost]

Posting images on this forum, as long as you abide by the "fair use doctrines" is perfectly legal. In a nutshell, “Fair use” is the right to use portions of copyrighted materials without permission for purposes of education, commentary, or parody. Discussion of hallmarks on this forum falls well under the fair use provisions. However, using copyrighted material for commercial or financial gain (by say publishing a book on hallmarks containing images stolen and used without the copyright holder's permission) is a copyright violation and subjects THAT person to penalties and sanctions. However, that is a fairly specific situation and isn't applicable in this particular discussion in which the information of the origin of a hallmark is being commented upon. As this forum is primarily used for education or historical analysis as part of an open discussion without commercial gain, the limited use of images or information (even if they are copyrighted ) can be used in a discussion or presentation, and in this context is perfectly legal and acceptable.