Service Hats (Early) c. 1912-1916 Spec. 1145 vs 1177

[CW4AFB]

Hey Al, don't forget me, I'd like to see those items, could make a good article!

 

Larry

Larry---You are always welcome---and you don't have to go all the way to Pickett to see these...we're just down the road.

 

regards,

Al

[everforward]

Todd--the best thing I have found for 116th History is the "History of the 116th US Infantry Regiment" compiled by Henry F. Seal Jr in 1953---it's not easy to find but every once in a while you'll see one pop up---I haven't seen many photos of the 116th in action in the Meuse - Argonne but one of our USMF brethren here (Ever Forward) is named John and he is a super knowledgeable guy and even volunteers at the 116th Museum ....When I was writing the 29th ID in the 20th Century book, John kept me on the straight and narrow for all things about the Stonewall Brigade....

Al

 

I have a copy of Seal's book and I will peruse through it to see if there is anything related to T.O.& E for the 116th in France. My copy belonged to Mifflin Clowe, a 3/116th D-Day vet (1LT) and later became Mayor of Winchester....got to chat with him a couple of times before he passed. I think that there may be some sort of typed manuscript floating around that has Major Hireome Opie's name on it, but this may have been the basis for some of Seal's book...I will let you all know later.....

[Dr_rambow]

I have a copy of Seal's book and I will peruse through it to see if there is anything related to T.O.& E for the 116th in France. My copy belonged to Mifflin Clowe, a 3/116th D-Day vet (1LT) and later became Mayor of Winchester....got to chat with him a couple of times before he passed. I think that there may be some sort of typed manuscript floating around that has Major Hireome Opie's name on it, but this may have been the basis for some of Seal's book...I will let you all know later.....

Wow, that's exceptional!

 

I would be excited to have any information you can supply on the subject. I have a lot of great information and photos from other units in the Division but nothing on the 116th except what is in the 1921 Divisional history. Photographic evidence points to 57th brigade having M1917s in France and I assumed that was the case for the Division but there are a few photos floating around supposedly showing 58th brigade units with 1903s. I also have photos of French M2s in use by the 113th Infantry in October of 1918, well after they were ordered not to be used. I have no idea if this was local or if exceptions like this were common enough for it to appear in the 116th also. I like the details so having this big of a hole in information has been frustrating!

[CW4AFB]

Wow, that's exceptional!

 

I would be excited to have any information you can supply on the subject. I have a lot of great information and photos from other units in the Division but nothing on the 116th except what is in the 1921 Divisional history. Photographic evidence points to 57th brigade having M1917s in France and I assumed that was the case for the Division but there are a few photos floating around supposedly showing 58th brigade units with 1903s. I also have photos of French M2s in use by the 113th Infantry in October of 1918, well after they were ordered not to be used. I have no idea if this was local or if exceptions like this were common enough for it to appear in the 116th also. I like the details so having this big of a hole in information has been frustrating!

 

Todd--the Army policy was that regular Army and National Guard units were to be equipped with 03s and the National Army was to have the Enfields--that way each division would only have to stock repair parts for one kind of rifle---made perfect sense in theory ---but by the time the St. Mihiel and Meuse Argonne campaigns came along, many replacements had been sent to each division and most showed up with a rifle either from their original unit or one of the in-theater remedial training sites---and the great policy went out the door...

Al

 

[Dr_rambow]

Todd--the Army policy was that regular Army and National Guard units were to be equipped with 03s and the National Army was to have the Enfields--that way each division would only have to stock repair parts for one kind of rifle---made perfect sense in theory ---but by the time the St. Mihiel and Meuse Argonne campaigns came along, many replacements had been sent to each division and most showed up with a rifle either from their original unit or one of the in-theater remedial training sites---and the great policy went out the door...

Al

I know for a fact that is not the rule that the 29th follows. I have quite a few photos of 29th units in France with 1917s, even units made from old NG units. I have photos of the 114th Infantry (old '03 equipped NGNJ) with 1917s as early as August 1918 well before the chaos that was the Meuse-Argonne. In fact that photos I have (mostly 57th Brigade) show almost exclusively 1917s. Really not what I was expecting when getting into the nitty gritty details, but there it was in black and white.

[everforward]

I know for a fact that is not the rule that the 29th follows. I have quite a few photos of 29th units in France with 1917s, even units made from old NG units. I have photos of the 114th Infantry (old '03 equipped NGNJ) with 1917s as early as August 1918 well before the chaos that was the Meuse-Argonne. In fact that photos I have (mostly 57th Brigade) show almost exclusively 1917s. Really not what I was expecting when getting into the nitty gritty details, but there it was in black and white.

 

Thought I would update this a bit....the only thing that we have 'found' so far is some correspondence that I'm told was included in the 29th Division History that was published in 1921 and penned by COL John Cutchins.

 

Somewhere in the book there is a passage where a 116th soldier talks about the day (to paraphrase) "...when we received our 'English' rifles...". This would refer to the troops getting M1917 30.06 US Enfields. I will try to provide more detail as I can.