Fritz Posted January 29, 2017 Share #1 Posted January 29, 2017 Gents, what is the theory or general consensus of images with the soldier wearing his Buckle upside down? Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
268th C.A. Posted January 29, 2017 Share #2 Posted January 29, 2017 If its a US he could be Confederate common practice of the times.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share #3 Posted January 29, 2017 The image is of an NCO and his Buckle is clearly upside down, pretty decent ambrotype. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted January 29, 2017 Here is a couple pics Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
268th C.A. Posted January 29, 2017 Share #5 Posted January 29, 2017 looking at this I see the very high collar on his shell jacket, small vest type button on the coat. The cap is on the table, Cant see any badges. I'd be leaning towards a milita unit, still possiby Confederate wearing the buckle upside down a synbol of rebellion.... I like it....Cool image Calvary with the sword and shell jacket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted January 29, 2017 Thanks, there's something on the top of the hat but I can't make it out, looks like crossed swords Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiques Posted January 29, 2017 Share #7 Posted January 29, 2017 I see nothing to suggest Confederate. While the collar is not that clear-- uniform appears to be a standard UNION shell jacket. The "CS soldiers wore their buckles upside down" is purely a reenactor thing that has grown a life of its own. Can't count the number of Union soldiers that I have seen with the US buckle upside down. When photographed it gives the appearance of the "S" on the correct size. I did a lot of research on the subject many years ago for an article (never finalized or published) and found no period reference to the subject. I did find many reenactor references from the early days (before sutlers, when many reenactors used authentic gear). The prevailing myth is that the "SN" stands for Southern Nation-- again NO period references to that could be found. I have talked with several other photo dealers and while there some debate on the subject many concur. Additionally, the National Park Service has tried to discourage the practice during reenactor events based on similar research. I suspect that this soldier heard a photographer's direction to some other soldiers (wearing US buckles) and went with it. I am aware that ambrotypes and albumen images can be "true" to the original subject without manipulation. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted January 29, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 29, 2017 Agree with the above.... Looks like a federal cavalryman...(crossed sabers on the cap?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted January 30, 2017 Thanks gents ? Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagjetta Posted January 30, 2017 Share #10 Posted January 30, 2017 Scottiques is absolutely correct. That whole "upside down" thing erupted in the days of the Centennial, and unfortunately, was repeated in the old Civil War Times Illustrated back cover image. Bad history seems to be like Kudzu. Once it is planted, it takes on a life of its own. Turning buckles upside down was a result of not understanding the workings of cameras and reversing mirrors. People dabbled at attempting to compensate for cameras without a reversing lens since the early daguerreian days (~1839-1860). It wasn't such an important issue for people who were posing in their Sunday best, but those who realized the affects, attempted to compensate. Reversing and flipping objects seemed the logical method, until they saw the result. Without a reversing lens, one needs to flip and invert something to get it to appear correctly on the photographic plate The most successful probably came from the imaginative mind of Sam Clemens when he posed for a daguerreotype in 1850 holding printer's type that spelled his name (correctly inverting and reversing the image that hit the daguerreian plate) in a way that the viewer was able to read it. Your image is simply that of a mounted US soldier...not militia, not confederate. He was doing what thousands had done before him--turned something upside down in the belief it would appear "correct" on the finished plate. Any attempt to explain this as anything other than misguided understanding of light and mirrors is allow the the misinformation Kudzu to spread. FWIW, JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarhead8007 Posted January 30, 2017 Share #11 Posted January 30, 2017 Maybe when he looked down at the buckle, it looked right side up to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Rogers Posted February 3, 2017 Share #12 Posted February 3, 2017 In this case turning the belt upside down is unlikely to be to correct the reading of the plate-- the sitter would know it was upside down and that it would look upside down. In fact, the reversal of the image in the tintype process would not have made much difference to the look of the plate- the eagle would just be looking in one direction rather than another. A very good reason for turning the belt over, however, is that it gets the sword on the wearer's right so that when the image shows reversed on the tintype the sword will seem to be correctly positioned on the wearer's left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Brigade Posted February 3, 2017 Share #13 Posted February 3, 2017 I see nothing to suggest Confederate. While the collar is not that clear-- uniform appears to be a standard UNION shell jacket. The "CS soldiers wore their buckles upside down" is purely a reenactor thing that has grown a life of its own. Can't count the number of Union soldiers that I have seen with the US buckle upside down. When photographed it gives the appearance of the "S" on the correct size. I did a lot of research on the subject many years ago for an article (never finalized or published) and found no period reference to the subject. I did find many reenactor references from the early days (before sutlers, when many reenactors used authentic gear). The prevailing myth is that the "SN" stands for Southern Nation-- again NO period references to that could be found. I have talked with several other photo dealers and while there some debate on the subject many concur. Additionally, the National Park Service has tried to discourage the practice during reenactor events based on similar research. I suspect that this soldier heard a photographer's direction to some other soldiers (wearing US buckles) and went with it. I am aware that ambrotypes and albumen images can be "true" to the original subject without manipulation. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Brigade Posted February 3, 2017 Share #14 Posted February 3, 2017 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikie Posted February 3, 2017 Share #15 Posted February 3, 2017 It's not upside down when he looks down at it. I was not aware that the old upside down buckle theory was debunked. My lesson for today. Mikie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiques Posted February 6, 2017 Share #16 Posted February 6, 2017 In this case turning the belt upside down is unlikely to be to correct the reading of the plate-- the sitter would know it was upside down and that it would look upside down. In fact, the reversal of the image in the tintype process would not have made much difference to the look of the plate- the eagle would just be looking in one direction rather than another. A very good reason for turning the belt over, however, is that it gets the sword on the wearer's right so that when the image shows reversed on the tintype the sword will seem to be correctly positioned on the wearer's left. Correct! Great point left out of my initial posting. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds308 Posted March 9, 2017 Share #17 Posted March 9, 2017 I can't wait to tell some of my friends and metal detecting buds. I already know what they'll say. This was incredibly informative. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted March 9, 2017 Share #18 Posted March 9, 2017 When I rotate in my mind 180° the buckles shown in the pictures shown above, I see "ZU" (think of the "Z" as an "S" pointing backwards)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted March 9, 2017 Share #19 Posted March 9, 2017 So, is it a photographical thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagjetta Posted March 10, 2017 Share #20 Posted March 10, 2017 So, is it a photographical thing? Yes, it involves two factors: 1) the lack of using a camera with / or a separate reversing prism. 2) Victorian era people not fully understanding how a reversing prism worked (also an affliction of many 21st Century folks, as well! ) They thought it was a matter of turning something upside down to get it "correct" itself (a simple look in a mirror, however, would have shown them that the idea was in error--the image is not the inverse, but rather, the reverse of what is seen). The notion is further complicated by using convex or concave glass to bend the light rays, and in the extreme, flip the image. More physics than what is needed to know. Much easier to remember, "upside down US plates are not an indication of rebellion." JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted March 10, 2017 Share #21 Posted March 10, 2017 A simpler way to explain it is they thought the image would be "inside out" rather than reversed like a mirror. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunbarrel Posted March 10, 2017 Share #22 Posted March 10, 2017 Great explanations! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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