MikeL Posted January 16, 2017 Share #1 Posted January 16, 2017 Greetings all, I came across a case this weekend that I thought was the case to the Mk IV Compass. Looking at it closer now, it is different so I wondered if there were any variations. It is styled very similar. It is unmarked except for the U.S. on the front of the flap, a single glove-type snap, on each side is a loop for a sling or strap, and a belt loop on the back but no M1910 hook. The hardware is painted brown. The snap is marked: "RAU F. CO. PROV. R.I." The interior is lined with a purple velvet-like material. I don't see anywhere that it was modified from an original Mk IV compass case - no stitch marks or cut off pieces/edges. The interior dimensions are 3" x 1.25" at the top opening, 3.5" deep at the center. Any ideas as to what it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
268th C.A. Posted January 16, 2017 Share #2 Posted January 16, 2017 It is a WW1 era compass case. snaps are usually broken. I'd leave it as is. Like my cartridge belts I leave them unsnaped when I store them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeL Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share #3 Posted January 17, 2017 Thanks for the information. I'll look back into my deep references. I also leave my snaps unsnapped. Heck, even when I look at something on a show table, I usually leave the snap unsnapped if I can get it open to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeL Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted January 17, 2017 Well, I looked at everything I had on the period. I could not find anything that looked like it with the side loops and no M1910 hooks. Could this pre-date the M1910 series equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted January 18, 2017 Share #5 Posted January 18, 2017 RAU Fasteners estabilished in 1912 moved to provenance in 1917. This case looks a lot the M1916. The absence of the 1910 hook suggest it could be a case for an instrument different than a compass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeL Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted January 18, 2017 Thanks, I'll start looking in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted January 18, 2017 Share #7 Posted January 18, 2017 I do not recall seeing a WWI compass pouch embossed with the US like that but I will look through some of my compasses. Normally only the clinometers have embossing on the case. Your compass case appears to have a relatively small belt loop on the back. I have seen a compass with a pouch that had a carrying strap before but it do not recall it being embossed with a US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted January 31, 2017 Share #8 Posted January 31, 2017 Here is a picture of the early wwi type compasses used by the US. I am not familiar with the US MK IV compass do you have a picture? The closest lined pouch that resembles your pouch are the pouches with the M1918 lensatic and MK VII Mod E compasses, bottom row from left 1 and 4 respectively. However, the dimensions are smaller. Note the Model 1918 Lensatic is often misnamed M-1938.. The M-1938 compasses are normally considered the small black (WWII) or anodized (post war) compasses. I believe your pouch is a mid war pouch used for something like a M2 Compass. I do not recall seeing one with a strap but prewar I expect one did. The dimensions are relatively the same and it is the same style except for the button which could have been used prior to the 1942 dated model that I have. I indicate pre WWII because cases were normally not embossed with US during WWI. Not much help but hopefully it is a start. The two devices on the right on clinometers, I accidently flipped the one on the bottom. The top is 1918, bottom 1944. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted January 31, 2017 Share #9 Posted January 31, 2017 Here is an M2 compass and pouch that is very similar but without the carrying strap, Note the later style snap. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted February 1, 2017 Share #10 Posted February 1, 2017 MkIV is a british designation of the post WWII prismatic compass MkIII. During WWI US adopted a copy of the MkIII made by "Cruchon&Emons" in Berne and in Paris. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/103399-another-compass-questionswiss-made/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted February 1, 2017 Share #11 Posted February 1, 2017 Artu, thanks. The compass top row second one in from left, is a WWI prismatic, sometimes referred to as the MK VIII. From what I've read it only differences from the Mk VII in that it has an arm attached to lock the card while not in use. From what I've read on line they made incremental changes resulting in the model shown. It is a C-E as you have identified. Regards, CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted February 1, 2017 Share #12 Posted February 1, 2017 C-E stands for Cruchon & Emons. "Mk" denomination is strictly british not american. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted February 1, 2017 Share #13 Posted February 1, 2017 Artu, thanks .. understand that part. In the manuals we just reference it as a prismatic compass without nomenclature. The last compasses that appear to be numbered are the Compass, Prismatic, M1918 ( has a clinometer) and the Compass, Lenastic M1918 above which is commonly referred to as the M-1938 (I believe incorrectly, I've yet to see anyone show a source). I could throw the M2 Compass in the mix but that was more an artillery compass rather than just a compass like the simple prismatic referenced above that was made by C-E and overseas referred to as the MkVIII by the British as you indicate. I just thought I would toss that out there in the previous post because it fell in line with the Mk IV convention he was using. All that and we still have not solved the OP's question,. I will endeavor to persevere, ha ha...Artu thanks again for the comments and insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #14 Posted February 2, 2017 The only reference for the lensatic m1938 I've found, is this page. Of course "prismatic" is is a lapsus. I dont think this compass was made in 1918 cause its body descend from the brit prismatics but the idea of use a lens seems to me more a between wars patent. http://olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_gear_compass_ww2.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted February 2, 2017 Share #15 Posted February 2, 2017 Artu, Thanks for the reply. I'm not a myth buster or an adept researcher such as Dustin or others such as yourself, but I believe they got it wrong as well as their source, Mr Enjames did. I have a copy of an old Engineer study that explains the development of the standard Lensatic compass (call it the M-1938) and no where does it reference the compass you have pictured. In fact if you google the M-1938 a fellow collector has extracted the fine points of the development and posted them on his web page. The fact of the matter is that most of the time when you find an unmolested Compass, Lensatic M1918 it will come in a leather pouch dated 1918 with inspectors initials. I am sure some artillery manual from that time period will identify it as well as the most common M1918 prismatic (with clinometer). The 1918 model prismatic I have posted above does not have a clinometer (strapped case). Below is an extract from an Army Regulation for reference debunking the common misnaming of the M1918 compass for your review and consideration. Maybe I should start another topic so it is available for forum comment/review. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #16 Posted February 2, 2017 Fine! Finally an official document. Well it's a lensatic M1918 even if I suspect it saw service after war together the swiss mirror compass with no manufacturer's name but marked simply "made in switzerland" bought in the period between wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sarge Posted March 18, 2017 Share #17 Posted March 18, 2017 Here is a picture of the early wwi type compasses used by the US. I am not familiar with the US MK IV compass do you have a picture? The closest lined pouch that resembles your pouch are the pouches with the M1918 lensatic and MK VII Mod E compasses, bottom row from left 1 and 4 respectively. However, the dimensions are smaller. Note the Model 1918 Lensatic is often misnamed M-1938.. The M-1938 compasses are normally considered the small black (WWII) or anodized (post war) compasses. I believe your pouch is a mid war pouch used for something like a M2 Compass. I do not recall seeing one with a strap but prewar I expect one did. The dimensions are relatively the same and it is the same style except for the button which could have been used prior to the 1942 dated model that I have. I indicate pre WWII because cases were normally not embossed with US during WWI. Not much help but hopefully it is a start. The two devices on the right on clinometers, I accidently flipped the one on the bottom. The top is 1918, bottom 1944.[/quote What is the top middle compass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artu44 Posted March 18, 2017 Share #18 Posted March 18, 2017 The US MK IV compass simply doesn't exsist, it's the denomination of the british 1903 issued compass. US adopted a copy of the british standard Verner's Pattern Mk VIII made in Switzerland and marked ENGINEER CORPS-US. As regards the M1918/38 lensatic, I think 1918 would be the model while 1938 the adoption. This compass was a copy of the british Dollond of 1917 (see http://antiquekiwi.com/antique/antique-ww1-era-dollond-london-marching-compass-cased-original-c1917#.WMzS2m81-Uk) so it could have been designed as M1918 but I dont think it saw any service until 1938 for the simple reason that US an the twenties ordered again from an unknown swiss manufacturere the old inferior floating card mirror compass already bought during WWI. Consider also that pouch style has very little meaning cause they didn't throw away anything serviceable. M2 compass wasn't a mid war compass being the first issue dated 1941. I got it in the same pouch purple velvet .lined as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted March 20, 2017 Share #19 Posted March 20, 2017 Sarge, The top middle compass is a US Engr. Dept prismatic compass - no date, that came in a Keuffel and Esser case marked the same dated 1917. The online compass museum indicates that a similar compass made by K&E was procured by the Eng Dept in 1909. I can dig it out and take pictures of you would like. Artu, I understand your comments about the compass and pouch; however, as the picture indicates from the publication I posted the compass was used well before 1938. The information comes from Technical Regulations (TR) TR 1320-B dated April 2, 1927 (Fire-Control and Sighting Equipment small arms and special infantry weapons). It covers a whole host of items, one of my favorites the "rifle periscope M1918" that attaches to your bayonet, etc.. The M1938 compass marks the development of the small black compasses by Gurley and Taylor. Regards, CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share #20 Posted March 22, 2017 CC, Thanks, that would be great. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccyooper Posted March 23, 2017 Share #21 Posted March 23, 2017 As requested. It is a rather large compass, 3 inch diameter and 13/16 inch thick. The case has two long straps on the back to slip a belt through. That is a K&E logo on the inside of the case. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sarge Posted March 25, 2017 Share #22 Posted March 25, 2017 Awesome, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMH Posted March 20, 2018 Share #23 Posted March 20, 2018 As requested. It is a rather large compass, 3 inch diameter and 13/16 inch thick. The case has two long straps on the back to slip a belt through. That is a K&E logo on the inside of the case. I hope this helps. It's not a compass it's a clynometer (altitude/level) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMH Posted March 20, 2018 Share #24 Posted March 20, 2018 Here is a picture of the early wwi type compasses used by the US. I am not familiar with the US MK IV compass do you have a picture? The closest lined pouch that resembles your pouch are the pouches with the M1918 lensatic and MK VII Mod E compasses, bottom row from left 1 and 4 respectively. However, the dimensions are smaller. Note the Model 1918 Lensatic is often misnamed M-1938.. The M-1938 compasses are normally considered the small black (WWII) or anodized (post war) compasses. I believe your pouch is a mid war pouch used for something like a M2 Compass. I do not recall seeing one with a strap but prewar I expect one did. The dimensions are relatively the same and it is the same style except for the button which could have been used prior to the 1942 dated model that I have. I indicate pre WWII because cases were normally not embossed with US during WWI. Not much help but hopefully it is a start. The two devices on the right on clinometers, I accidently flipped the one on the bottom. The top is 1918, bottom 1944. I am in need of 5 or 6 pouches - can someone help ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCMH Posted March 20, 2018 Share #25 Posted March 20, 2018 one of mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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