Restrike WW1 Collar Disks

[moshea]

Do you know if they made WW1 USMC discs? Very helpful,Thanks,Mike

[Nack]

Do you know if they made WW1 USMC discs? Very helpful,Thanks,Mike

Repro ones? For sure.

[Mitter2k1]

It's been a while since this has been bumped and unfortunately, I have to be the one that does it. I got this from the usual source and due to poor pics, I think I've been duped. So thanks to their 14 day money back guarantee, I think I may be sending these back. So it looks like 1 good and 1 bad from 2 different lots.

First up is a suspect 2nd Infantry Regiment Co. M disk that looked alright enough in the photos to garner a bid from me. Upon receiving it, the disk had a noticeable glossy finish and a suspect screw post. However, the shiny paint is only on the front of the disk and some of it has flaked off. The back has what appears to be the normal blackened finish. Also, the post assembly seem to be brazed on to the disk. Also note the corrosion on the brazing. So the tell tale hump may or may not be present since this disk has plenty of brazing on the back and there appears to be some excess around the post as well. With the paint and the excess on the back, is this disk a repro/fake or has it been repaired and the finish on the front "restored?"

Front


Back

The second disk is a common US enlisted disk and the screw post has the infamous hump style back. So I may 2 for 4 with disks from this seller if these turn out to be fakes. I always want to be 100% sure before I act and start a claim with the seller.



Back


Thanks,
Mike

[KurtA]

Mike-

Your two disks both look fine to me.

Kurt

[Mitter2k1]

Mike-

Your two disks both look fine to me.

Kurt

Thanks. I always get nervous when I see this style of back. I just don't trust them without a second opinion.

 

Thanks again,

Mike

[cwnorma]

Been a while since I posted to this thread, but I thought I would update everyone on some information I have learned in the last few years.

 

The distinctive screw posts with the hump were made by a company named "B.A. Ballou." They had been in business since the late 1800s making jewelry "findings"; pins, catches, clasps, screw-posts, etc. Ballou went bankrupt in 2009 and their business holdings were purchased by W. R. Cobb, another jewelry findings supplier.

 

http://www.jckonline.com/2015/10/21/wr-cobb-acquires-ba-ballou*

 

http://www.wrcobb.com

 

Much of Ballou's tooling was quite old, making it difficult to tell period hardware from recent manufacture. Ballou was also the manufacturer of early-style pin hardware that was seen on many reproduction wing-badges and other rare insignia.

 

Perusing the W. R. Cobb on-line catalog shows that they are no longer selling this dimpled-style of screw post. In fact, they don't seem to be using any of the manufacturing equipment or tooling purchased from Ballou. Their current screw-post is much more "modern" looking and (probably) less likely to be mistaken for period original.

 

The good news is with Ballou out of business, no "new" WW1 collar disks are being made with their hardware, the bad news is unscrupulous dealers will likely continue to sell the hundreds made over the years and as more time goes by, they are beginning to get some "age" on them.

 

Be careful out there!

 

Chris

[koi27516]

I revisited my WWI collar discs to see if any of those fit the re-strike criteria and only 3 looked suspect...well one I think is a repo for different reasons. Attached are 2 pics of the suspect discs. I concluded the 2 Infantry discs were ok because the "hump" looked different but I would like input from you guys on that. The air corps musician disc...did that really exist? Looks too good. It was not expensive & I was willing to tolerate it as a repro. If you guys think otherwise, I'd like to hear that. Any and all opinions are welcome. Thanks.

[cwnorma]

As predicted years ago, we are beginning to see more of these Naugatuck Novelty Company Disks making their way to the market purported to be originals. As of this writing, there are a dozen or more on the main internet auction site. Do yourself a favor and download the Naugatuck Novelty Company Catalog:

 

 

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/105861955697485892280/album/AF1QipNpfQ9U5FztWqaBlmlaDiIQyJKTi6pGngzL02op

 

Note! This catalog shows most, but not all the reproductions once available from this company. Additionally, many, many reproductions of "exotic" disks start out with a Naugatuck Novelty Company disk as a base--to which various appurtenances are often added.

 

Unfortunately since this thread first made its rounds on the forum, several new manufacturers of reproduction disks have entered the market.

 

Its a minefield out there guys. Caveat emptor.

 

Chris

[MWDVET]

Hello all.  I am newer to collecting WW1 disc’s and am inquiring if the experts on the forum think this is a restrike.  The nut has a concentric recessed area and not off to one side as previously described. It does have a raised, symmetric area around the screw. I bought this as ‘original’ from a respected seller. I realize that not everyone can be knowledgeable about all variations/restrikes/etc..  Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

 

[atb]

In my admittedly non-expert opinion, not a restrike, but a brand new fantasy disk. I do not believe such design existed. Others with more knowledge, please provide other opinions.

[MWDVET]

I do believe the design exists as I have seen variants in reference sites. 

[atb]

To clarify, I don't believe the design was used on enlisted men's collar disks. Good chance I'm wrong, but that's my opinion for now 

[JohnK83882]

3 hours ago, MWDVET said:

Hello all.  I am newer to collecting WW1 disc’s and am inquiring if the experts on the forum think this is a restrike.  The nut has a concentric recessed area and not off to one side as previously described. It does have a raised, symmetric area around the screw. I bought this as ‘original’ from a respected seller. I realize that not everyone can be knowledgeable about all variations/restrikes/etc..  Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

 

Fasteners are often replaced over time and nuts that aren't original are common. (Dry cleaners is my guess)

[KurtA]

3 hours ago, atb said:

In my admittedly non-expert opinion, not a restrike, but a brand new fantasy disk. I do not believe such design existed. Others with more knowledge, please provide other opinions.

Agree.   But I don’t think they’re brand new.  I’ve been seeing all these, what I also consider “fantasy”, disks since the 1970’s.  Another popular one is the crossed sabers with machine gun on tripod below. All are rather well made.  And the U.S.S. scout disk is another to beware of.  Now that one was manufactured and worn, but originals are exceedingly rare.  But examples (rather convincing fakes) always seem to show up on EBay.  

[KurtA]

1 hour ago, MWDVET said:

I do believe the design exists as I have seen variants in reference sites. 

Can’t believe everything you read.  

[GAZOO]

Here is the one in my collection ??

[Remark]

I have seen about 8 or so of these types Veterinary disks in real life and another half dozen on websites.  Everyone I have encountered with narrow V in the horseshoe has had the dimple back type post attachment.

 

I have seen a few on line and in Scipio's The Collar Disk Story page 115 #12 that have a wide V in the horseshoe, but I have never seen the reverse of the wide V variation and have never seen one in person.

[atb]

6 hours ago, KurtA said:

Agree.   But I don’t think they’re brand new.  I’ve been seeing all these, what I also consider “fantasy”, disks since the 1970’s.  Another popular one is the crossed sabers with machine gun on tripod below. All are rather well made.  And the U.S.S. scout disk is another to beware of.  Now that one was manufactured and worn, but originals are exceedingly rare.  But examples (rather convincing fakes) always seem to show up on EBay.  

Don't forget the ones with a mule on them.

[GAZOO]

forgot to show the back
it was and still is missing the nut


as i remember I purchased these all at the same time

[MWDVET]

I see examples of this disc style across different sites. Germandaggers.com reference, US Army Veterinary Corps Historical Preservation Group, and multiple reputable seller sites. At a minimum, it is a curiosity worth hearing from the experts.  Worst case scenario, a good conversation generator.

[JohnK83882]

This site shows the horseshoe insignia's in "THE CANTONMENT MANUAL 1917" by Major W.G.Kilner and Lt. A.J. MacELROY

 

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gregkrenzelok/genealogy/veterinary corp in ww1/WW1 Army Insignia Identification.html

 

 

 

This is a link to the book. https://archive.org/details/cantonmentmanual00kilnrich/page/136/mode/2up

 

[JohnK83882]

This web page shows the horseshoe insignia on a patch and the 1919 insignia with the V.

 

 

https://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/brookeusa-veterinary-corps.html

[GAZOO]

some more of my collection showing other examples of the winged horseshoe

[atb]

I think we can all agree that the horseshow, winged or not, with "V' or not was use on various insignia. My scepticism concerns the validity of enlisted men's disk with them as the design. 

[GAZOO]

14 hours ago, atb said:

I think we can all agree that the horseshow, winged or not, with "V' or not was use on various insignia. My scepticism concerns the validity of enlisted men's disk with them as the design. 

  I am guessing if there was it would of been a very short time frame considering prior to June 3 1916 the establishment of
the U.S. Army's Veterinary Corps there were no enlisted veterinarians.  
And consider in the Summer of 1918 the Veterinary Corps was finally recognized as a medical branch of the service (caduceus)
so 2 years at the most and for a rather small number for a good part of this time frame

Without a clear photo it may never be proven, even uniforms can be altered