THE "UDT" KNIFE...fact or fantasy?

[Dsizzle]

The following attachments show a USN marked Robeson SurEdge Mark 2 and the “KA-BAR” displayed at the UDT/SEAL Museum in Fort Pierce Florida. They are nearly identical, including the sheath design. The museum also has at least one USN Mark 1 on display. The Western “SEABEE” L71 knife pictured has characteristics of both the Mark 1 and the “Fantasy UDT knife”. As mentioned earlier, many of the NCDU sailors were hand picked from Construction Battalions and would have likely used these knives, even as the UDT units were formed.

[Dsizzle]

Like many so-called “UDT” knives, the Western L71 SeeBee has no fuller and a similar rectangular ricasso. The tang of the L71 goes through the butt plate, revealing a split tang. The blade has a very similar grind to early Camillus Mark 1 knives. In fact, Camillus supposedly made the blades for a 1980’s repro that was marked “Western L71 SEEBEE”. The pictures in my next post will show the terminus of the split tang at the butt plate and how close the grind of the “SEEBEE” mimics the original WW2 Camillus Mark 1. The tightly stacked washers without grooves resembles the look of the “UDT” except that they are H- shaped in the SeaBee knife. 

[sactroop]

I know I've posted this picture before, but it seems fitting.

 Info attached to file:  NCDU_200_1944_Fort_Pierce_Later_UDT_15_vo1

 

 

 

[Dsizzle]

2 hours ago, sactroop said:

I know I've posted this picture before, but it seems fitting.

 Info attached to file:  NCDU_200_1944_Fort_Pierce_Later_UDT_15_vo1

 

 

 

Great picture! Mark 2’s all around! Although we can’t see details, we can be reasonably certain from circumstantial, photographic, and existing artifacts that the knives carried by NCDT’s and UDT’s were USN marked government issued knives by and large. However, we can also be reasonably certain that sailors carried what they individually determined to be the best available knife for the job, be it an issued blade or a private market one.

If a bright plated KA-BAR knife with a heavily-shellacked smooth leather handle were available, I can certainly see where a sailor constantly in the salt water would want one as the SEAL Museum book points out. Even if it is proven that the “UDT fantasy knife” was never issued during the war, customized versions of the Mark 2 or other models may have been produced in small quantities.

 

In the final analysis, all these knives are beautiful and fascinating. Of course, some are more beautiful than others. A big draw of knife collecting for me is the research and analysis of those brave servicemen who did what had to be done to preserve our freedoms. 

[blademan]

A now deceased friend of mine, Pat G*a*i*n*e*s, was a member of a UDT team that softened the beaches of Siapan prior to the invasion. I specifically remember asking what knifes they were issued and carried, he said they carried the standard USN Mark II. 

 

As a side note, this brave sole was one of about 5 that survived from the men that left their sub for the beach. He said he disobeyed a direct order not to help anyone off the beach on the way in, and according to him, his helping others resulted in the death of his best friend. (I do not share that opinion) He suffered from survivors guilt the rest of his life 😔 I always thought he was a hero and encouraged him to accept his medals (I was told he was eligible to get a silver star but never checked). He never did pick up his medals.  RIP my friend. 

 

If anyone has any info about my friend, would love to hear about it.  Maybe on a pm or different thread as not to hijack this thread. Thanks

[dustin]

10 hours ago, Dsizzle said:

Dustin,

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. Your critique is well-taken. I would like to add that, as the attached documents show, the USMC 1219c2 and USN Mark 2 were indeed virtually the same knife, even in the eyes of the original manufacturer. My point is that not just collectors routinely refer to this style of knife as a KA-BAR  regardless of maker or service stamp on the blade. To this day, veterans still call all knives of this design a “KA-BAR” in informal discussions. In my mind, that validates my analysis as being accurate on that point. I do, however agree that your word preference is more precise and probably more fitting in discussions among serious expert collectors.

My second point is that not every Marine was issued a USMC marked 1219c2 immediately in 1942 or even before Tarawa. However, it goes without saying that given the choice between a Mark 1 or a USN marked Mark 2, any Marine would seek out the USMC version. This is still the case, as USMC marked blades are more highly sought after and command a significantly higher price. Standard issue or not, the USMC models have always been in high demand and were considered by Marines to be an improvement over the Mark 1, even if the Mark 1 had a different purpose originally. I am pretty sure Major America, one of the two Marines credited with the design of the 1219c2 had a Mark 1 next to it on the work bench as a benchmark from where to begin.

 

 

 

This is interesting because you want to ignore facts to fit a preconceived narrative. The 1219c2 predates the formal designations of the Mark 1 and Mark 2, and again you reference "improvement" over the Mark 1, that is blatantly false information. When the 1219c2 was adopted by the USMC the Mark 1 and Mark 2 did not yet technically exist. The 1219c2 was standard issue with 782 gear for all Marines, once it became available. There was no "seeking" them out as they only had to go to the supply room to obtain one, and what you perceive is that marines loathed the fact they had a USN (if they were even issued one) marked knife and would conduct clandestine missions to get a USMC marked type? The 1219c2 was assembled as per service requirements having to meet pre-established guidelines i.e. durability, corrosion resistance etc. Additionally, the Mark 1 is/was just as robust as the Mark 2 or 1219c2 only differing in blade length. Though everyone on this forum, me especially, is guilty at one time or another of having a misunderstanding, it is this forums mission to discuss and sort out facts. "more fitting in discussions among serious expert collectors." We are serious enthusiasts and collectors here and we attempt to sway away from La-La Land as much as possible. 

[sactroop]

OBTW, in the picture I posted (#78), back row second from the left, that sailor isn't carrying a MK2, 1219C2, 394831, or possibly not even a K-Bar.  Just saying.

Might it be a Mark 1,  or one of the Q knives,  or one of the many others?

[Dsizzle]

9 hours ago, dustin said:

 

This is interesting because you want to ignore facts to fit a preconceived narrative. The 1219c2 predates the formal designations of the Mark 1 and Mark 2, and again you reference "improvement" over the Mark 1, that is blatantly false information. When the 1219c2 was adopted by the USMC the Mark 1 and Mark 2 did not yet technically exist. The 1219c2 was standard issue with 782 gear for all Marines, once it became available. There was no "seeking" them out as they only had to go to the supply room to obtain one, and what you perceive is that marines loathed the fact they had a USN (if they were even issued one) marked knife and would conduct clandestine missions to get a USMC marked type? The 1219c2 was assembled as per service requirements having to meet pre-established guidelines i.e. durability, corrosion resistance etc. Additionally, the Mark 1 is/was just as robust as the Mark 2 or 1219c2 only differing in blade length. Though everyone on this forum, me especially, is guilty at one time or another of having a misunderstanding, it is this forums mission to discuss and sort out facts. "more fitting in discussions among serious expert collectors." We are serious enthusiasts and collectors here and we attempt to sway away from La-La Land as much as possible. 

Just to be clear, I am not presenting myself as an expert on any knife and I don’t intend to ruffle the feathers of more knowledgeable collectors such as yourself. I am just trying to sort this out for myself and share ideas. I appreciate your candid input. I also appreciate your acknowledgement that amateur collectors such as myself sometimes confuse timelines and model numbers. Sometimes new eyes discover new things.
 

I mean no disrespect to the USN Mark 1 utility knife, which is a useful and handsome knife in its own right. According to my research, it was based on existing hunting knife designs and continued to be produced throughout WW2, so it was clearly a useful and robust knife as you have pointed out. The documentation I have seen shows that the USN Mark 1 was designed in mid to late 1942, predating both the USMC 1219C2 and the USN Mark 2 in reality.

I have not seen documentation of when the USN Mark 1 designator “technically” came into existence, but it was in development and Camillus won a contract for this knife in 1942. The basic design certainly existed before that and therefore, the USN Mark 1 type design was available for review when the USMC teamed up with Camillus to design the 1219C2. It therefore stands to reason that the Marines could have chosen the USN design as their standard issue combat knife, but they did not.
 

However, my earlier comments about “improvement” were actually intended to reference information regarding the perceived inadequacies of the Mark 1 Trench knife, which the 1219C2 did in fact directly replace according to the evidence I have seen. I apologize if I miscommunication or was otherwise imprecise on that bit of information. Nevertheless, I stand by the notion that the Camillus USN Mark 1 design was likely consulted when the Marines came up with the 1219C2 and that they considered it an improvement in combat capabilities as well.

 

I also stand by the fact that not all Marines were issued the 1219C2 at the same time. It may seem speculation, but I know from modern experience that when one unit gets a new piece of gear, the “have-nots” do clamor for it to be issued to them as well. It is well-documented that Marines were issued USN marked knives and other gear when needed. It is also a fact that modern Marines (and modern collectors) want the USMC marked knives over the USN models. I don’t know where you got the “secret mission” reference, but Marines are legendary for “acquiring” combat gear when needed.

If you read my first post, my whole point is that the ordinary USN Mark 2 models are under-appreciated because people don’t seem to recognize that they were likely the first and most commonly used UDT knives! Everyone is looking for a unicorn that probably does not exist as Frank T has so graciously and eloquently pointed out. It was not my intent to take this thread into another direction, nor do I believe any dis-information on my part has been “blatantly” spread.

 

I enjoy this conversation and welcome any additional information anyone may have.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Dsizzle]

Just to start being more precise, 

“Frank T”= Frank Trzaska. Thanks Frank. Good work! I should have Googled your work on this first.

[Kadet]

Thought I would post this photo from one of my albums. L-R Nick Nikolenko, Rollo Beck, Bob Scoles and R.K. Hobbs of the OSS MU/UDT-10. This photo is part of a series taken at Fort Pierce after their combat tour in the Pacific with UDT-10. I'm not a knife guy, but I see a pretty wide variety of them on their belts... 

[doyler]

The Mkll was still a popular and issue knife to the UDT/SEALs in VIetnam. Here is one seen hanging upside down on the harness of the SEAL 2nd from left

 

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ST 2

 

MKll on right SEAL holding Stoner

 

 

 

 

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Mkll on left hip of SEAL off loading the boat

 

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Strapped to leg with signal flare mounted.

 

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[dcollector]

8 hours ago, doyler said:

 A lot of work went into that M14 - welding the mags together and fixing the M60 fore grip in place. I wonder if that was a China Lake creation or depot level.