THE "UDT" KNIFE...fact or fantasy?

[Greg Robinson]

I have been looking through various books and manuals hoping to find a pic of a smooth grip, flat sided blade (non-fuller) MKII. So far the only reference I have found is the following. This book was published with the support of the UDT / SEAL Museum. I have only included the part that covers the smooth grip, flat sided MKII, not all of the data on the MKII.

 

I have not seen the article published by Frank so have no basis of comparison.

 

One thing that detracts from the authenticity of this article is the reference to the later "UDT" knives with fullered blade and pinned pommel. I've read Frank T.'s article and it's very well researched and written. There can be little doubt that those "UDT" knives with peened out markings and often in near mint condition were those post war commercial pieces he refers to. It's the "early" non fullered knives which I still feel _might_ be legit. The guy who emailed me and claimed he was familiar with my "UDT" knife was very knowledgeable re UDT history and their operations and he didn't seem to have any agenda for misleading me. He wasn't asking anything of me and genuinely seemed to be trying to help.

 

Greg

[Greg Robinson]

When I did a freedom on information act request for the sailer whose name in on my knife, I got limited information back. But they did provide his rating which was an AMMP2 (Aviation Machinist's Mate Propeller (Mechanic) 2nd Class). Based on this I now see him as more somebody who supported the frogmen and made up a wartime souviner when he discharged.

[gunbarrel]

A friend of mine has asked me to post these pictures of a knife he owns, he doesn't have access to a computer.

Could this be UDT related.

 

It is marked USMC and made by CAMILLUS

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

Many thanks

 

Martyn

 

Martyn,

 

That appears to be a Marine Corps WWII issue (theater?) modified Mark 2. I would not think it had any relation to the Underwater Demolition Teams. What is the handle made of?

 

GB

[GICOP]

Hi GB

 

I looks like it has been machine cut from a solid piece of resin or very hardened rubber, in fact it looks very similar to the material used on wire cutter handles.

 

I'm sorry I can't be any clearer than that.

 

 

My friend has owned the knife for many years

[Greg Robinson]

Martyn,

 

That appears to be a Marine Corps WWII issue (theater?) modified Mark 2. I would not think it had any relation to the Underwater Demolition Teams. What is the handle made of?

 

GB

 

That's a USMC "k-bar" made by CAMILLUS in the 1944-1945 period. They saw service from late WW2 thru Viet Nam so who knows when it was rebuilt with the smooth handle. I doubt it had any connection to the UDT. There was a version of this knife that was factory chrome plated.

 

Greg

[GICOP]

Thanks Greg and GB I shall be passing this info on to my mate Lester

[DesertRatTom]

I realiize this thread is somewhat dated. Does anone know where else the 'lost' pics might be found? I couldn't get any results from internetarchieve.org Does this thread exist anywhere else on the site?

 

Tom

[jayhawkboy]

Dave,

 

I think this answers your question:

 

http://www.cursor.org/stories/seal_or_udt_2.htm

 

GB

I'm not sure if anyone is still monitoring this thread, but I recently bought a NCDU grouping that consisted of his helmet, uniform, gas mask and Navy knife. It looks like an ordinary Navy knife, but I will post pictures if anyone is interested. Brian

[1perazzi]

This is interesting. A good friend of my Dad was UDT in WW2. When he passed away several years ago Dad asked his wife for something of his to remember him by and she gave Dad his knife. It was a M3 that he carried - sharp as a razor, it has the plastic sheath. Always wondered about it but now ?

[usmce4]

With the utmost respect to the contributors of this thread who have passed but left us with their knowledge, I thought I would bring the thread up to date with a picture of the subject as the existing links are no longer working.

Art

[sactroop]

Here's the picture of the knife Gary posted in #3. If a Mod can reinsert it there, please feel free to delete this post.

 

[KRIS FORD]

Oh jeez..

 

Get a load of this!

 

"For sale is a USN MK2 knife with scabbard. We are unsure exactly of it’s origin, we believe it to be something more special and rarer than the average knife. Instead of having the regular handle with the ridges it is a smooth stacked leather handle. The reasoning for this was so salt water couldn’t get in the grip and corrode it. There’s a possibility the knife is a diving knife or a marine raider knife or some other military MOS that was closely related to being in water. The condition is best described by the photos. Feel free to do research on the knife and see what you come up with! Thank you."

 

The kicker for this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCC-USN-MK2/222951584132?hash=item33e8f33184:g:CvkAAOSwADpa42Zs

 

 

Cool knife..won't even speculate on the handle..as it could have been done by Gramps or Uncle Joe at his workshop or where he worked in the 50's-80's..but why is anything that is even just slightly out of the norm have to be associated with some sort of Special Warfare??

[KRIS FORD]

Seems using the term EOD for MK2s is also in use for anything that is slightly out of the norm.

 

But EOD knives are non magnetic..so that's laughable when you see EOD in a sale ad or by an ignorant seller..

[KRIS FORD]

To further ad to this post:

 

Frank T sure sums it up well in the article "Military Minutia" in the May 2013 Knife World:

 

"Weske “UDT” Knives

“Sanssouci” marked knives were made by Weske Cutlery Co. located in Sandusky, Ohio. Weske was in business from circa 1946 to 1952. The majority of knives I have seen were made from surplus military models purchased from Ka-Bar, Boker, Case, Queen and Camillus among others. The Mark 2-like models can be found with the ricassos removed or with the guards overstamped to eliminate the original manufacturer’s name. If the surplus blade was originally a blade-marked model, then the ricasso was removed by grinding the tang longer. You’ll note that on the knives without a ricasso the stacked leather grip is typically longer by this amount. On knives that were originally guard-marked, the guards were overstamped or new guards were made with the Sanssouci marking applied in an oval. Pommels were installed and pinned in place with a short length of pin stock or the tangs were peened to hold them in place, depending on the type of pommel used. Sometimes both methods were used on one knife. Weske was located next door to a chrome plating shop so many knives were plated as well. They did not have a hafting machine so grips were not grooved like the original military models were.

Weske produced the knives we collectors call, incorrectly I might add, UDT knives. They advertised knives with and without blood grooves, imagine that. Neither the Sanssouci marked nor the so called UDT knives were connected with the military in any way; they were sold as hunting knives by Weske Cutlery Co."

[flyfisher46]

I see the photos I sent some time ago of my uncle's UDT knife are missing, so I'll try again. My uncle, Everette Greenley, was in the first group of UDT trainees that trained with scuba gear, circa1948, 1950. As a kid at the time, I was proud as punch that my uncle was a "Frogman." When he got out, he lived with us for awhile and regaled me with many horror stories about being "guinea pigs" for testing decompression times, new equipment, etc. He gave my dad, his older brother, his UDT knife. Dad used it for a hunting knife for years and when he died, I got it. I don't know what all this fact or fantasy is all about, but I can tell you for certain that this Geneva forged Mark 1 with a stacked leather handle, was used by a first generation frogman. Well, I've shrunk the photos twice now and I still get "Error, file too big to upload." What kind of funky system do we have here? Ok, I'm a computer dummy. I've shrunk the photo files to miniscule, 1 inch and they are still too big for this site. Any suggestions as to how I might get the knife photos uploaded here?

[kwill]

It is hard to get them small enough to post. I've struggled with this same issue but if you want to email them to me I'll try to get them posted. kevin at kwill dot com.

[kwill]

Navy Lt. Fred W. Schmidt (lead UDT diver) after recovery of Apollo 15. Note the knife (and cool dive trunks!)

[kwill]

I see the photos I sent some time ago of my uncle's UDT knife are missing, so I'll try again. My uncle, Everette Greenley, was in the first group of UDT trainees that trained with scuba gear, circa1948, 1950. As a kid at the time, I was proud as punch that my uncle was a "Frogman." When he got out, he lived with us for awhile and regaled me with many horror stories about being "guinea pigs" for testing decompression times, new equipment, etc. He gave my dad, his older brother, his UDT knife. Dad used it for a hunting knife for years and when he died, I got it. I don't know what all this fact or fantasy is all about, but I can tell you for certain that this Geneva forged Mark 1 with a stacked leather handle, was used by a first generation frogman. Well, I've shrunk the photos twice now and I still get "Error, file too big to upload." What kind of funky system do we have here? Ok, I'm a computer dummy. I've shrunk the photo files to miniscule, 1 inch and they are still too big for this site. Any suggestions as to how I might get the knife photos uploaded here?

 

[kwill]

2nd picture

[KRIS FORD]

Apollo 15 Recovery.jpg

Navy Lt. Fred W. Schmidt (lead UDT diver) after recovery of Apollo 15. Note the knife (and cool dive trunks!)

 

Blowing the pic up, it looks like a MK2 with a yellow painted handle (and 2 black stripes??) that some of the paint has come off..

[kwill]

I don't think there are two black stripes; just worn off paint.

 

[KRIS FORD]

I don't think there are two black stripes; just worn off paint.

 

 

Ahh..yep! Couldn't enlarge it anymore.

[Frank Trzaska]

Wow I remember this thread, lots of people were not happy with me over this one. The values of all those knives dropped fast... I had quite a few myself and still do. I still think they are cool knives just not WW II era UDT knives. Lots of memories but not all are fond!! ;-)

[dustin]

​In case anyone is interested in what is taped to the scabbard, its a Mark-13 Mod-0 Day/Night distress signal. Pull rings on each end, one being orange smoke and the other two red stars. The end with red stars has a perimeter of bumps for low light recognition.

 

[kwill]

Neat, Dustin! This seemed to be a pretty common practice with UDT/SEAL guys.