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THE "UDT" KNIFE...fact or fantasy?


BC 41
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Hello collectors.

 

 

I have this knife USN- UDT Kabar in my collection & like to shown the picture of it because it are not like the knifes in COLE III book ?

 

The guard are bend the another way.

 

If someone have some more info ,- i will be glad. thumbsup.gif

What is a fair value for this knife ?

 

Clic on the link for images

 

http://www.picfury.com/galleries/ImageGallery-42487.html

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Greg Robinson

Recently, the guy who's generally regarded as the guru of the Mk 2 pattern knife, Frank Trzaska, has uncovered info that appears to place the WW2 "UDT" knife as a "fantasy" item. I'm not willing to go so far as to say all of them were post WW2 commercial items but I concede that most of them are. In particular, those that have the peened markings are suspect. Apparently, it all started when M H Cole believed a story he'd been told and included these in his books. I couldn't open your link to see what you have but be advised that the market for these is ruined since Frank wrote that article. That being said, you occasionally still see these sell for good money.

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I would also like to see the photos, but have to totally agree with Greg. The idea of a UDT knife rebuilt from a Mark 2 never did make a lot of sense to me, including the x marked out maker marks. I don't know of anyone who has found a UDT man who recalls using one of these, and I feel that Frank's discoveries about them being a post-WW2 commercial product using leftover parts purchased mostly from KaBar are correct. Putting a guard on upside down is certainly possible.

 

Here is mine. It has a polished blade, smooth grip, and straight guard. The KaBar guard marks are crossed out.

 

Udt.jpg

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Greg Robinson

I sold the "UDT" knife I used to own which looked like Gary's. My second "UDT" cost me too much money to allow me to just give it away as a mistake.....and you never know what information might be uncovered later. It's the one with non fullered blade and peened on pommel and no markings on guard. Somebody, allegedly the UDT guy, engraved his name and service number on the blade along with "DEMOLITIONS" and I have one of his dog tags. It also has a Navy serial number on the ricasso. The knife has patina on it consistent with exposure to sea water (granted....could be faked). I once had it briefly listed on ebay and a fella emailed me and said he was a former frogman, post WW2. He said he'd seen knives like mine before. So it this just a con job by somebody, is it an elderly man with poor memory, or is it legit info? Who knows but I still got the knife just in case.

 

Mike Silvey had a version like mine in his WW2 knives book and I got to tell you it looks "RIGHT"....even has a cutomized leather sheath. Maybe it's not necessarily a UDT knife but these with non fullered blades were not made out of an off the shelf Mark 2 knife. So what are they? I asked this of Frank once and he got irritated as if I were disputing his research....but I'm still trying to figure this out.

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Charlie Flick

BC:

 

I am afraid that Greg and Gary are correct. When Frank T. published that expose in Knife World on these so-called UDT knives the giant sucking sound you heard was collectors trying to get rid of them. While no one is infallible, Frank's research on this was pretty much bullet proof, in my opinion. There is no doubt in my mind that these blades are not UDT knives and not even USGI. When they were made they were not sold as UDT knives but simply as solid, inexpensive, fixed blade sheath knives, and they were.

 

These knives will always have some value because the MH Cole books will always be around to perpetuate the myth, a myth which other writers have also swallowed and passed on as fact.

 

I sold mine (at a big loss) to a guy I know who wanted it even after I had told him that it was not a UDT knife and had given him a copy of the article. He just could not get past the Cole book reference.

 

Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.

 

Charlie Flick

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BC:

 

I am afraid that Greg and Gary are correct. When Frank T. published that expose in Knife World on these so-called UDT knives the giant sucking sound you heard was collectors trying to get rid of them.

 

Charlie Flick

 

What where these worth at their peak? Sounds like it must have been a lot.

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Greg Robinson
What where these worth at their peak? Sounds like it must have been a lot.

 

The "UDT" knife I used to own which was identical to the one that bayonetman shows in his pics was mint and cost me about $250....and this was at least eight years ago. I was suspicious of it right from the start....my instincts told me not to trust it, but it was beautiful and all the references showed it as being a "UDT" knife so I kept it. When Frank T's article came out I listed it on ebay with no reserve and with a statement that the authenticity of these was in dispute due to a recent magazine article. And I still sold it for a bit more than I paid. Good ole ebay!!! I absolutely believe that it's one of those post war pieces that Frank T wrote about.

 

But the fullerless version with peened pommel and no markings baffles me. So I'm hanging on to it. It was expensive knife. :(

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craig_pickrall

Greg, do you know if anyone has contacted the UDT / SEAL Museum in FT Pierce, FL to see what info they have? They have some nice equipment displays with seldom seen items.

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Greg Robinson
Greg, do you know if anyone has contacted the UDT / SEAL Museum in FT Pierce, FL to see what info they have? They have some nice equipment displays with seldom seen items.

 

 

Yeah...Frank Trzaska contacted them while he reseraching this and had no luck. Basically, nobody remembered seeing such a knife and there were no photos of such a knife. I contacted a guy down there and tried to verify the identify of the UDT Team #1 guy who had emailed me and said he recognized my knife.....but had no luck. The rosters are not 100% complete. So that was inconclusive. It seems that the "typical" knife carried by the "frogmen" was a standard issue Mk 2. But in my mind this isn't grounds for saying they "NEVER" carried such a knife.

 

There were some plated Mk 2's made during WW2 and I'm told this was done for the purpose of experimenting with corrosion resistence. I used to own a Navy Mk 2 made by Robeson Cutlery that had what appeared to be a factory chrome plate. So there is some precedence for doing this.

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This has long been an item of discussion among collectors. I don't claim to be an expert on knives, although I have long had an interest in the Navy Mark 2.

 

In general, Frank's research on the probability of the so-called UDT knife being a commercial product of Weske Cutlery of Sandusky Ohio is very strong. Frank feels they bought leftover/overrun/out of spec parts from the Mark 2 contracts following World War Two, and assembled them into knives for commercial sale.

 

The question of them being UDT and being rebuilt by the Navy for such use has always raised some questions.

 

1. Why were the markings crossed out? There would be no reason to "sterilize" them, the original theory was to show they were rebuilt and not as made, but that really doesn't make any sense.

 

2. Why did the Navy not simply order new knives to the specifications they wanted instead of a fairly complex rebuild of existing knives? The cost of disassembling existing knives, polishing or plating the blades, assembling the grip with new washers, etc. would probably have exceeded the cost of ordering them direct new made.

 

3. Why smooth handles which at least in theory would be "slicker" when wet? It would make more sense to use a rougher handle, not a smooth one.

 

4. Why are some plated and some polished? Plating makes sense in a salt water environment, polished certainly does not.

 

Agreed there are exceptions to the "normal" version. Greg's version certainly raises some questions, due to the lack of a fuller and the peened tang. This MAY be the result of Weske getting parts either from another source or ones that the fuller had not yet been forged or machined, or it may be something else. The question of course is, if it is Navy rebuild for the UDT, where did the Navy get unfullered blades? If these were a separate Navy contract, why are they unmarked?

 

It is possible that ones like Greg's were private purchase. Even though knives were available through issue channels, it could be that individuals preferred this style. I think all collectors have to agree that "odd" things happen and unless we have positive information to the contrary, we can put certain items in the "possible'" category until we get proof one way or the other.

 

I have a Kiffe/Japan marked Jet Pilot's Knife that was used in Vietnam. It was carried by a Army private in 1970-71 who ordered it from a Kiffe catalog because he liked the style but was unable to "liberate" a military issue version for his personal use. I got it from the veteran who clearly stated it was a private purchase. So we have a "fact" that somewhere down the line might be corrupted by family lore or misstatement - "Dad was issued this knife in Vietnam".

 

Keeping an open mind is necessary to any collector. Information and "facts" change with time and research. But that is what makes this "fun" for people such as myself. "Inquiring minds want to know".

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About three years ago, someone posted a real interesting piece on one of the knife forums, maybe on the military knives forum. It was a great post. This guy interviewed and took pictures of a WWII veteran who had been a UDT "frogman." He still had his service knife and he still used it for chores around the house. It was a Pal RH-35 Mark 1. I believe he kept it in his tool box and I think he had the hard plastic scabbard with it. I wish I would have saved a link to the post! :(

 

GB

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Greg Robinson

While I was growing up I had a good friend who's dad was a Marine Colonel. One summer when we were in our teens this friend got to go to Florida and get SCUBA trained at some military facility but I can't say where it was.....might have been where the Navy trained the SEAL's. Anyway, when he came home he had all the equipment with him including a dive knife which was a standard issue "k-bar" that had some sort of grease on the blade as I recall.

 

I walked into a pawn shop over ten years ago and they had one of the chrome plated Camillus pilot's knives....the ones that looked USGI but were commercial copies. It was dated 1968 and priced at $15 so nobody was trying to make it into anything special. The shop owner casually mentioned that he got it from a "former SEAL" and, who knows, it could be a true story since it was not intended to be a reason to jack up the price. I'm told SEAL's did carry private purchase some private purchase knives and a plated pilot's knife would have been a suitable one.

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I have one of those plated (or stainless) commercial Camillus Jet Pilot's knives picked up cheap at a flea market. The back of the sheath is marked in pen - 1st Lt. / W.G.CLINE / 091140 / U S M C. I have never been able to track down any firm information about this person, but have always assumed that this was a private purchase.

 

CAMJP.jpg

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Greg Robinson
I have one of those plated (or stainless) commercial Camillus Jet Pilot's knives picked up cheap at a flea market. The back of the sheath is marked in pen - 1st Lt. / W.G.CLINE / 091140 / U S M C. I have never been able to track down any firm information about this person, but have always assumed that this was a private purchase.

 

Interesting!!! That's a commercial version of the early blade marked pilot's survival knife. Mine is a 1968 dated commercial version of the one with markings on the hexagonal pommel. But otherwise the same knife.

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craig_pickrall
While I was growing up I had a good friend who's dad was a Marine Colonel. One summer when we were in our teens this friend got to go to Florida and get SCUBA trained at some military facility but I can't say where it was.....might have been where the Navy trained the SEAL's. Anyway, when he came home he had all the equipment with him including a dive knife which was a standard issue "k-bar" that had some sort of grease on the blade as I recall.

 

Greg, I suspect that school was at Key West. That was the Navy SCUBA School for years but later turned over to the Army and they used it for Special Forces SCUBA School. The USN School was just standard SCUBA and not anything to do with UDT / SEAL. I have a friend that went through that school as a Torpedoman / Submariner in about 1967 / 68.

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Greg Robinson
Excuse the ignorance,please explain the abreviation of UDT for them that don't know.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave.

 

 

UDT = UNDERWATER DEMOLITION TEAM.

 

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A Brief History of UDT...

The first Naval Combat Demolition Units (NCDUs) and Underwater Demolition Teams(UDTs) were organized and trained at Ft. Pierce, Florida during World War II. The Teams were responsible for conducting reconnaissance and demolition missions along enemy held beaches in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters of operation. After the war, they were reorganized into four teams: two in the Pacific and two in the Atlantic. During the Korean conflict, UDTs were once again called into action, conducting night demolition raids and serving as human minesweepers in harbors and rivers. During the 1960s and early 1970s, UDTs were the first to greet astronauts as they returned to earth following manned space flights. The next major conflict UDT participated in was in Vietnam. This time they shared their role with two Sea, Air, Land Teams (SEALs) that had been formed in 1962. Some four decades after their inception, the U.S. Navy converted all UDTs to SEAL Teams and merged their mission into one. From the early days in World War II as NCDUs and UDTs to the present day SEALs, these elite combat units have been at the forefront of every conflict and national emergency that has faced our nation.

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Thanks Greg,

 

Am right in thinking these guys came after the Raiders or they one in the same thing?.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave.

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craig_pickrall

The UDT teams were a PTO unit only. In Europe they were NCDU which is Naval Combat Demolation Units.

 

The Raiders are a USMC unit.

 

Fort Pierce, Florida is where the UDT trained and also the USMC Scout / Sniper School was at the same location.

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craig_pickrall

I have been looking through various books and manuals hoping to find a pic of a smooth grip, flat sided blade (non-fuller) MKII. So far the only reference I have found is the following. This book was published with the support of the UDT / SEAL Museum. I have only included the part that covers the smooth grip, flat sided MKII, not all of the data on the MKII.

 

I have not seen the article published by Frank so have no basis of comparison.

 

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