Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash

[ccmax]

There are original US painted helmets around, no doubt. They usually surface with other artifacts which can be traced to one veteran. On other cases, these helmets have been in collections for a long while, having been obtained decades ago, when they hadn't reached such high selling figures.

 

Over the years demography has influenced the amounts of US helmets surfacing, so has technology. This made things easier seeing as from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s an unseen amount of M1s coming from deceased vets appeared for sale.

 

You can develop a sense of what is original and what is not through the inspection of known originals (if you've been in contact with WW2 vets and had a chance to see what they had this is not so difficult). Small association museums were also the best places to see what real helmets look like. Anyone who was already into this during the 80s and 70s knows what I am talking about.

 

Anyone can be fooled, but helmet finds must be understood within the contexts they are found. CONTEXT plays major part to judge whether or not you are buying the right thing.

 

 

I was hoping someone here could answer this question for me that I had I posted several pages ago...

Your answer may be helpful in the future...

 

So, can someone explain to me what kind of "chain of custody" would a high-end helmet need to have with it to fetch a four or five figure price tag?

I am primarily a WWI collector, but I do have a few M1's and a few liners. They are so easily interchanged that I fail to see how any helmet and liner can be positively said to have been together since the end of the war...

 

I hope this is not inappropriate to run this question by you all a second time...

 

Thank you,

TR

 

[ccmax]

Also, liners that have been in pots for 70 years are very different from newly added ones.

[Hambone]

Lid humpers will air out or disguise the new paint smell in a number of ways. However, a good old school cheap lid paint analysis trick is this: put the helmet in a sealed plastic bag. Those clear medium office garbage bags work great because they have no smell. Leave the helmet in there sealed for a couple days, preferably where it is a little warm. Then, open the bag slightly, stick your snozzle in there and take some whiffs. Smell new paint? If so, you probably have problems.

[TrenchRat]

 

It's an M2 paratrooper helmet, commonly called a D bail, it doesn't need any chain of custody to get 4-5 figures, that just adds to the price.

 

You are right that it's often impossible to tell if a liner is original to a shell, but sometimes you can tell for various reasons. Some times the helmet chinstaps or the para extensions were tucked inside the shell, which deformed the liner, sometimes they are stuck together and don't come apart, sometimes the liner has rust stains that mach those inside the shell. I have a helmet shell and liner that were repainted (war time) with the same paint and a few drops of the paint also got on the chinstrap, sweatband, suspension, and nape strap.

 

So, a random and complete para liner and a complete M2 shell, when put together, can fetch that amount? Its the sum of the parts then more or less.

 

Value is increased by it being together forever? Then more so if it named, then value is further increased if it has markings and an applied pattern, proven to be original?

 

Fair so say?

[TrenchRat]

There are original US painted helmets around, no doubt. They usually surface with other artifacts which can be traced to one veteran. On other cases, these helmets have been in collections for a long while, having been obtained decades ago, when they hadn't reached such high selling figures.

 

Over the years demography has influenced the amounts of US helmets surfacing, so has technology. This made things easier seeing as from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s an unseen amount of M1s coming from deceased vets appeared for sale.

 

You can develop a sense of what is original and what is not through the inspection of known originals (if you've been in contact with WW2 vets and had a chance to see what they had this is not so difficult). Small association museums were also the best places to see what real helmets look like. Anyone who was already into this during the 80s and 70s knows what I am talking about.

 

Anyone can be fooled, but helmet finds must be understood within the contexts they are found. CONTEXT plays major part to judge whether or not you are buying the right thing.

 

 

 

 

Great, thank you!

 

[kammo-man]

I just looked at this guys instagram account postings of his helmets and to me they look like they were painted by the same hand.

The style is similar from cammo to cammo.

As you know an artist develops a "hand" and its his signature.

I can see this in the work when presented as a job lot for review.

Oh well odd how he never ran into an original NAM painted helmet in his travels.....

If so he would have been squarely on my radar.

[kammo-man]

Lid humpers will air out or disguise the new paint smell in a number of ways. However, a good old school cheap lid paint analysis trick is this: put the helmet in a sealed plastic bag. Those clear medium office garbage bags work great because they have no smell. Leave the helmet in there sealed for a couple days, preferably where it is a little warm. Then, open the bag slightly, stick your snozzle in there and take some whiffs. Smell new paint? If so, you probably have problems.

 

VERY GOOD TIP.

[Bugme]

Lid humpers will air out or disguise the new paint smell in a number of ways. However, a good old school cheap lid paint analysis trick is this: put the helmet in a sealed plastic bag. Those clear medium office garbage bags work great because they have no smell. Leave the helmet in there sealed for a couple days, preferably where it is a little warm. Then, open the bag slightly, stick your snozzle in there and take some whiffs. Smell new paint? If so, you probably have problems.

Hambone, there is a way to eliminate new paint smell that you are likely not aware of but, it works and even the bag trick will let you down.

[TrenchRat]

With all these suggestions about masking the age or odor of the applied paint, well, this almost sounds evil, you know?

 

I mean, to me, there is no more thought that he was just trying to make some extra cash by faking helmets, maybe because he needed money or whatever.

 

But, If any of that is proven to be true, then, well, this was one helluva well thought out, premeditated, plan !

[stealthytyler]

Is there a good way to identify quickly faked surface rust vs real aged surface rust?

[David D]

Is there a good way to identify quickly faked surface rust vs real aged surface rust?

For what I've seen and what I can gather real aged rust gets more of a darker brown color. While quickly faked rust is a more orange color.

[doyler]

Is there a good way to identify quickly faked surface rust vs real aged surface rust?

 

To me some of the chemical type rust will look black

 

I'm sure others will elaborate on other forms

[Para54]

Here is a great link covering alot of the things to look for relative to real and faked patinas, rust, etc.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/43517-catching-the-fakes-guide-insignias-and-patina/&do=findComment&comment=334207

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

 

So, a random and complete para liner and a complete M2 shell, when put together, can fetch that amount? Its the sum of the parts then more or less.

 

Value is increased by it being together forever? Then more so if it named, then value is further increased if it has markings and an applied pattern, proven to be original?

 

Fair so say?

Yeah, I'd say a just a M2 shell would be around 2-3K (keep in mind I'm not in the market for one, I don't really keep up with the prices, I know they've dropped since a few years ago.) if it was complete, named or marked it would be worth a lot more.

[kammo-man]

I think it's best not to put faking information on a thread like this.

 

 

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[ArchangelDM]

I think it's best not to put faking information on a thread like this.

 

 

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+1

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

I agree, if there is a way to fake something like age cracks or get rid of the paint smell, just say it exists so we can be wary of it, not share how to do it.

[Blacksmith]

I agree 100%, but every time I say that in one of the USMC camo topics I get told "this stuff is all easy to find online". Maybe it is, but let's not put it right next to reference photos, and make it a step-by-step guide.

 

I think it's best not to put faking information on a thread like this.

 

 

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[cutiger83]

Well faking information wasn't on the forum yet this entire thread is about collectors being duped. Bit ironic to worry about posting information.

[nirvana]

Stopping forgery isn't going to happen in this thread. Bad people know how to do this stuff, obviously, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Knowing how the fakers operate can help to spot fakes, and knowing what can be faked can also help you spot fakes. If its true, that new paint smell can be hidden, then something lacking a scent isn't guaranteed to be original. So, if that is the way you judge helmets, think again. If you only buy something because the rust is brown, think again. If you think that lead paint means original, think again.

 

To be honest though, I don't think these fakes are all that sophisticated. He painted stuff, rubbed on it with something scratchy, and then put a dark wash to make the white paint look more dull. Maybe some were left outside rust some, or maybe other unpleasant stuff was applied. It wasn't anything fancy, these aren't german decals or die formed medals.

 

I remember the first time that I went to JKash's website a while back, as I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Who on earth has a dozen camo-painted 82nd airborne medic d-bail helmets with captain's bars welded to the front of them, all named to guys who were killed at Normandy, all with that perfect "used but not abused" wear and rust that collectors just love to see? If its too good to be true, it is.

[Blacksmith]

So then you haven't read the points above, like amending non-lead paint with lead powder to get it to pass test? Or, carefully applying post-war paint around cracks and patches of original patina? Or making sure you don't put bogus camo on the rim of the helmet, where the original helmet paint has worn away?

 

 

 

Well faking information wasn't on the forum yet this entire thread is about collectors being duped. Bit ironic to worry about posting information.

[cutiger83]

So then you haven't read the points above, like amending non-lead paint with lead powder to get it to pass test? Or, carefully applying post-war paint around cracks and patches of original patina? Or making sure you don't put bogus camo on the rim of the helmet, where the original helmet paint has worn away?

 

 

 

 

 

I read it. As Nirvana said, saying anything in this thread isn't going to stop the forgers.

[GeneralCheese]

Yes, I disagree with the idea that we shouldn't be talking about the methods fakers use. If you have a general idea of how they forged something, it becomes a lot easier to spot. Now, putting a step-by-step guide on how to fake something should be frowned upon, but the knowledge of the outcome and where to look should be shared.

[GeneralCheese]

Here is the first shot again so it will display on this page so its easier to review the two.

 

7th nbb 1.jpg

 

Take a look here, this may actually not be nefarious: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/219444-need-some-help-with-water-marks-on-helmets-and-an-ike/

 

Whether your shell is original or not, do you know if it came from somewhere else, or another one of Magician Jamie's magically appearing gems?

[gitana]

another one of Magician Jamie's magically appearing gems?

 

Jamie Jingol !