Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash

[Blacksmith]

Great Caeser's skateboard! Just about got the "who's who" of steel pots there. What's missing? ARVN tiger maybe?

 

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[Tom Kibler]

I just wanted to say thanks to all who have read and understood my posts. I've tried to make it clear on all points what I know about the helmet. Some here have praised the helmet when Jamie first posted it and those same people have condemned it, saying that they knew it was fake. Quite hypocritical.. Makes any argument on "real", pretty mute, as they've demonstrated they don't know. Until late last night, I never delved into my computer to see if I had any saved info on the helmet, as I had nothing to defend my self of. That is until I read all of the allegations, accusations, miscommunications, theories, etc, that make the presumption that I've done something wrong. I've got nothing to hide. I did nothing wrong. I did find a file and forwarded much of the information to the moderators (as it seemed no one wanted to hear anything I had to say). So with that;

 

 

Moderators, I am done with the topic and no longer wish to be included any further with this helmet or the associated snipe hunt. Jamie Kashetta is the one that needs to answer for his actions, not me.

 

Respectfully to all,

 

Tom Kibler

[63 RECON]

Just to make it clear Tom I never accused you of anything and if it can't across that way it was not my intent. I was only interested in your process on choosing items and so forth. I'm going to go back and read your posts again to see if I may gleam something else from them.

 

Shame you don't feel that you can be included in this anymore considering this is a forum where ideas and views on a particular issue can be discussed.

[Para54]

Here is a pic of a 377th PFAB I was offered by Jamie. Soon after I was informed it was sold. In October of 2016 I purchased a 502nd SB M1 shell that he listed on DZ, but I returned it as the hearts had a faint paint odor. He refunded my money without any fuss. I was apprehensive to maje another purchase, but he and his helmets seemed to be so highly regarded on this forum, that I did eventually purchase a camo 505th FB M1 and was paying on the 508th fireball that some of you may remember seeing. I did correspond with him quite frequently, and he sure seemed like a great guy. I always questioned provenance, but usually got an ambiguous answer indicating it came from a trade from a collection in Europe. I have messaged him requesting a return of the funds paid towards the 508th. He did tell me about his Africa trip, and that he would be gone for the month of August.

I am not new to collecting WWII headgear and helmets, but was new to M1 and AB helmets. Like I said, he seemed to be the trusted "expert", so I drank the kool aid, too. Like many others who have purchased his helmets, (and there are quite a few others not shown in the helmet group photos) I am left wondering if we will ever hear from him, and if any money will be returned, although that seems unlikely at this point, considering the considerable amount of money probably involved in the entire scope of things. I will say that in the year I did closely follow him and his helmet acquisitions, I did become suspicious that one guy could source so MANY painted AB helmets, but he assured me that he had many connections with many collectors, which no doubt is true, but apparently not the entire truth.

[ParanormalTrooper]

For the people who own some of his helmets isn't possible to have the paint tested for lead? I thought all paint from that era had lead in it. Just a thought , it might put some people's mind at rest. If I don't know what I'm talking about please tell me, just thinking out loud.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

I thought I read that Jamie was using original 1940s\50s paint?

 

Not 100% sure about that, I might have to read back over the thread.

[BILL THE PATCH]

I don't remember that part, I remember reading it might have been some oil type paint seeing he's in graphic design.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

 

[JasonT]

I'm a novice collector and don't collect helmets or have any real knowledge of them. However, I have been following this thread for several days now and just wanted to say that I'm sorry for all the folks who were possibly scammed, taken advantage of and robbed over the past several years by someone they thought they could trust. What happened to Ronny is especially horrible in that he may have gone out of his way to target someone individually who he was acquainted with and who knew he was right out of school and had to make sacrifices in order to obtain that centerpiece of his collection. I hope other novice and young collectors out there are also paying attention to this and can learn from it.

 

As for the paint itself, they stopped using lead paint in 1970's. However, some painting contractors would add lead to non-lead paint to make it apply better. The same could be done in this case. So just because it has lead doesnt necessarily make it old. A good idea may be to take a small chip of paint to an environmental testing agency and they will tell you for sure if it new or old. It's much more accurate that any at home lead test. Paint has also changed a lot over the years. They may be able to identify other chemicals that could identify the age of the paint. Now if a faker was using period paint it's another story. However, would 70 year old paint even be usable even after mixing? Old paint that is stored away often has mold or mildew spores in it. That is another thing that could be tested.

[Bugme]

It needs to be pointed out that many of the non-A/B helmets on DZ were consignments from other collectors. Jamie did offer this service which many collectors used. Thus, it cannot be assumed that EVERY helmet was fake, even among the A/B helmets. I fear that some legit helmets now in other collections or still on consignment will fall under the "fake" moniker.

[Garandomatic]

I don't recall if it was available in matte finishes, but at least until the mid-2000s, "one-shot" paint (used by old fashioned sign painters and car/motorcycle pinstripers) had lead in at least some of their colors, especially white.

[Para54]

That situation is inevitable. I have also hunted and collected Indian artifacts for over 40 years, and once a collection is discovered to harbor a decent amount of fakes, it casts a cloud of suspicion over the entire collection. Once that happens, most serious collectors dont even want to be remotely associated with said artifacts. Obviously the downside is that the 100 % good pieces, now also are tainted. This phenomenon is just inevitable.

[JasonT]

I don't recall if it was available in matte finishes, but at least until the mid-2000s, "one-shot" paint (used by old fashioned sign painters and car/motorcycle pinstripers) had lead in at least some of their colors, especially white.

Some commercial paints may still have lead in them (road line striping, automotive, etc.). It's also important to note that a lot of foreign countries still allow it. Again though, a lab test may be able to tell what era the paint is from based on its other chemical compositions.

[cutiger83]

What happened to Ronny is especially horrible in that he may have gone out of his way to target someone individually who he was acquainted with and who knew he was right out of school and had to make sacrifices in order to obtain that centerpiece of his collection. I hope other novice and young collectors out there are also paying attention to this and can learn from it.

 

 

 

 

It needs to be pointed out that many of the non-A/B helmets on DZ were consignments from other collectors. Jamie did offer this service which many collectors used. Thus, it cannot be assumed that EVERY helmet was fake, even among the A/B helmets. I fear that some legit helmets now in other collections or still on consignment will fall under the "fake" moniker.

 

This is just a sad state of affairs all across the board.

[doyler]

I don't recall if it was available in matte finishes, but at least until the mid-2000s, "one-shot" paint (used by old fashioned sign painters and car/motorcycle pinstripers) had lead in at least some of their colors, especially white.

I know a sign painter.He had gallons of the old paint.He was also painting helmets and many showed up on ebay through secondary sellers as real.The painter always would tell you if he painted a helmet but the next person wouldnt.His two biggest selling helmets were medic and 2nd Ranger due to SPR movie phenomemon.Many sold on ebay at various time at various location both US and abroad and get resold.

[Ronny67]

 

man that sucks, did you figure out the 509th lid was bad straight away of is it with the current revelations?

 

It looked really good from the photos, in hand, the paint was really fresh. I only had it about 4 weeks prior to this thread blowing up.

 

Under magnification the deception is obvious. He uses tan paint to add patina and color to camo colors and markings.

 

He is VERY careful not to get paint into previous cracks, and have rust showing through the markings.

 

But the paint is just real fresh. And the brim shows camo paint on the bare Stainless steel, where all the WWII paint has flaked away. So the camo was painted after WWII IMO.

 

My problem was I was super busy with school and did not see on Jamie's FB or Instagram the sheer AMOUNT of rare helmets, with such regularity, that he was turning out. I missed the pattern.

 

I had been focusing on school when suddenly he emailed me a picture of the blue 509. I was out of the loop and in my mind, Jamie was a respected seller I trusted, and the community seemingly trusted. So I bought the helmet. When would I ever have a chance to buy a 509th lid?

 

I have spent lots of time studying WWII helmets, and it did not look right from the moment I had it in hand. But I wanted to believe- 4 grand worth. It won't happen to me again.

 

Edit: I sent him an email when this thread blew up asking for a refund- no answer. But he is in Africa, you know.

[TrenchRat]

I was hoping someone here could answer this question for me that I had I posted several pages ago...

Your answer may be helpful in the future...

 

So, can someone explain to me what kind of "chain of custody" would a high-end helmet need to have with it to fetch a four or five figure price tag?

I am primarily a WWI collector, but I do have a few M1's and a few liners. They are so easily interchanged that I fail to see how any helmet and liner can be positively said to have been together since the end of the war...

 

I hope this is not inappropriate to run this question by you all a second time...

 

Thank you,

TR

[KASTAUFFER]

After reading all these posts, I don't think I would ever touch a painted helmet unless I bought it myself at an estate sale for $25.

 

I have always had to watch for fakes in my 35 years of collecting medals, but this is just ridiculous.

 

Kurt

[Para54]

My question to Ronny67...could you smell the paint? Obviously 70 year old paint should have zero paint odor. The 3/505th camo (see pic) that I purchased from him had zero paint odor (I sniffed it thoughly several times) and I also tested the black cannonballs for lead (tested positive) and the green vesicant paint, which also tested positive as being original gas detection paint. I used the methods explained on this forum for both tests. I also inquired if he had ever put the helmet up for review here or on the APF, and he said he had not.

I wonder if he perfected a way to eliminate paint odor, as one would assume, there would be residual

paint odor still detectable? Just some thoughts.

[AnDuc49]

My question to Ronny67...could you smell the paint? Obviously 70 year old paint should have zero paint odor. The 3/505th camo (see pic) that I purchased from him had zero paint odor (I sniffed it thoughly several times) and I also tested the black cannonballs for lead (tested positive) and the green vesicant paint, which also tested positive as being original gas detection paint. I used the methods explained on this forum for both tests. I also inquired if he had ever put the helmet up for review here or on the APF, and he said he had not.

I wonder if he perfected a way to eliminate paint odor, as one would assume, there would be residual

paint odor still detectable? Just some thoughts.

WWII gas paint is still available. A large number of his helmets are camo painted with gas paint too I believe. If so, wouldn't it be impossible to tell one that he recently painted compared to a 70 year old original?

[doyler]

Why should it not be? It was owned by several very experienced collectors before, who all deemed it original.

 

The only reason why people are questioning its authenticity is because the OP ruined the lid. I would not be surprised at all if jkash came back and told us it was a fake lid to begin with in order to try to sound less guilty.

 

 

Trust me, I'd love it if the Shelton helmet were fake.

Is it possible the shell was original and a repaired one at that.Possible and we may never know.

 

Taking a shell(that is real) and adding a name or rank etc has been done and seen before.To me the added name here in the item we are discussing has a lot of ear marks of the markings or paint style you see in german helmets that have been inhanced with name and unit designation.In my untrained eye it has the looks of something painted or added like seen on fakes that surface out of europe that have been studied and posted.Just my opinion which is solely mine but the name and serial number sure look like markings or a hand we have seen before.

[Burning Hazard]

After reading all these posts, I don't think I would ever touch a painted helmet unless I bought it myself at an estate sale for $25.

 

I have always had to watch for fakes in my 35 years of collecting medals, but this is just ridiculous.

 

Kurt

 

Kurt,

 

Just avoid anything 101st airborne, 82nd airborne and Ranger; originals are almost non-existent and anything that comes up should be looked at with severe skepticism.

 

However, there are numerous painted helmets that are 100% legit and owned by collectors here on the forum so not all is bad.

[Hambone]

I thought I read that Jamie was using original 1940s\50s paint?

 

Not 100% sure about that, I might have to read back over the thread.

 

A skilled humper need do nothing more than add lead white powder to his paint to make it test for lead. Further, even period paints on German helmets which had some lead in them won't readily test positive for it with lead testing kits. Don't even bother. There are labs that can break down the chemical components of paint. Paints of the post WW2 era are different in composition, as to their binders, drying agents (sicatives) and pigments. These components can be identified because that is how these paints, binders, agents, are patented. It's not cheap. XRFacts was a medicine show, and we later saw that it was tied to the Great Champagne Rune Fraud. German helmet collectors have no cause nor right to ridicule this fiasco.

 

It looks to me like perhaps original gas detection paint may have been used. Someone skilled at the use of paints, mixing paints, etc., such as a graphic artist, is capable of what we are seeing.

[stealthytyler]

Anyone that owns a helmet from him with vesicant gas detection paint, can you please take an extreme closeup photo of the vesicant paint using natural light with NO flash? Lets get a number of images to compare color, application, aging, tonality, etc...

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

I was hoping someone here could answer this question for me that I had I posted several pages ago...

Your answer may be helpful in the future...

 

So, can someone explain to me what kind of "chain of custody" would a high-end helmet need to have with it to fetch a four or five figure price tag?

I am primarily a WWI collector, but I do have a few M1's and a few liners. They are so easily interchanged that I fail to see how any helmet and liner can be positively said to have been together since the end of the war...

 

I hope this is not inappropriate to run this question by you all a second time...

 

Thank you,

TR

 

It's an M2 paratrooper helmet, commonly called a D bail, it doesn't need any chain of custody to get 4-5 figures, that just adds to the price.

 

You are right that it's often impossible to tell if a liner is original to a shell, but sometimes you can tell for various reasons. Some times the helmet chinstaps or the para extensions were tucked inside the shell, which deformed the liner, sometimes they are stuck together and don't come apart, sometimes the liner has rust stains that mach those inside the shell. I have a helmet shell and liner that were repainted (war time) with the same paint and a few drops of the paint also got on the chinstrap, sweatband, suspension, and nape strap.

[TrenchRat]

 

It's an M2 paratrooper helmet, commonly called a D bail, it doesn't need any chain of custody to get 4-5 figures, that just adds to the price.

 

You are right that it's often impossible to tell if a liner is original to a shell, but sometimes you can tell for various reasons. Some times the helmet chinstaps or the para extensions were tucked inside the shell, which deformed the liner, sometimes they are stuck together and don't come apart, sometimes the liner has rust stains that mach those inside the shell. I have a helmet shell and liner that were repainted (war time) with the same paint and a few drops of the paint also got on the chinstrap, sweatband, suspension, and nape strap.

 

Thanks for that...

[airborne53]

Anyone that owns a helmet from him with vesicant gas detection paint, can you please take an extreme closeup photo of the vesicant paint using natural light with NO flash? Lets get a number of images to compare color, application, aging, tonality, etc...

hello

for original gas detector paint , check this post on g503 forum , very intresting

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154076&p=889607#p889607

olivier