Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash

[jbassmaster18]

Hey Grant. Had the exact same thing happen to me when I asked him about the ranger helmets that he was showing in his avatar.

 

Same excuse, not his and he offered to send me close ups, then he stopped responding.

 

Lets note: In February 2016, he asked on another forum for photos and examples of original 5th ranger helmets.

 

The only known original I currently know of, that was found in the good ole days, and was once on Pete's "collectors corner" on his websit was shown by the original owner. He no long owns the helmet today but it was his for a very long time.

 

Fast foward to November 2016. What does Jamie find? A named and matched 5th ranger helmet with markings that are an exact copy of the original example shown.

 

Then in April 2017, he post a 5th ranger on ebay for $5,800 Buy It Now on ebay, with a literal identical marking to the one he found in November, but a completely different helmet.

 

Pure copies. A wolf among the sheep getting spoon fed the best ways to fake helmets, and then turn around and sell them right back to us.

 

He posted a 551st helmet which now unfortunately belongs to another member here which is pretty much an exact copy of the example shown in American Paratrooper Helmets by Michel De Trez on page 81.

 

He also has shown and sold a 508th blue winged NCO helmet, which yeah you guessed it, a copy of a 508th helmet shown on page 135 in the very same book, even down the to size of the NCO bar, which is smaller than you'd usually see.

 

J

Those ranger helmets are laughable. I just never said anything. Yet again, I am so glad I sold my collection........

[john k]

http://www.thepicta.com/user/wwii_dropzone_helmets/4903169857

 

Since I can't find the actual instagram, here's photos of past helmets on a different page.

 

Looking at this summary of sold helmets suddenly reminds me of looking at a bunch of easygreen helmets, just at a much more advanced skill/forgery level.

 

Each example on it's own looks convincingly good, but when you start to see the common details it's hard to deny that it looks like the same hand was involved in the painting, be it 75 years ago or last week.

 

 

This whole thing sure is disheartening.

[nirvana]

A lawsuit is only laughable if you want it it to be. If someone sold me a $10,000 turd, it would get ugly quickly. It doesn't hurt that I sue people for a living, but I'd be going down legal roads that would make money squeak out of somewhere in short order. This sort of thing only lasts as long as people realize that it's easy to escape scot-free, and that collectors can be kicked around because they think getting justice is hard or a waste of time. The first time one of these people loses their televisions and microwaves and motorcycles because the sheriff has shown up and taken them away for an auction, it may actually cause some stuff to change. That the 3rd Reich collectors decided to turtle and talk each other out of suing the crooks means little to me. They are permitted to be complacent with their $20,000.00 spray painted paperweights. I don't do that.

[nirvana]

 

Did they ever determine the exact source of the Champagne runes?

I believe so, more or less. A certain name was getting repeated here and there, but the sourcing of that name wasn't clear to me.

[GeneralCheese]

 

Looking at this summary of sold helmets suddenly reminds me of looking at a bunch of easygreen helmets, just at much more advanced skill/forgery level.

 

Each example on it's own looks convincingly good, but when you start to see the common details it's hard to deny that it looks like the same hand was involved in the painting, be it 75 years ago or last week.

 

 

This whole thing sure is disheartening.

 

I agree, each one on its own is convincing (except those terrible Ranger helmets), but it really is apparent looking at several side-by-side, which he has conveniently done on his Instagram.

 

[iron bender]

Good God. Looking at the helmets all together…. looks like a 82nd pathfinder unit dumped all their helmets in a pile after the Normandy jump and jkash was their to pick them up

[anton67]

I bought a helmet from JKash a few months ago. I had it for a week plus. At first I liked it but then the longer I had it the more dissatisfied I became. I decided to return it. At that point I did not want to say anything negative about the helmet or JKash because I was afraid of reprocussions.

 

I therefore chose not to say anything other than I was returning the helmet.

 

Keep in mind he had a no strings 15 day return policy with the helmet.

 

He then (thankfully) banned me from buying off of his site.

[Hambone]

Guys, the talk of lawsuits and court is a pipe dream. This same thing is still up in the air after two years of back and forth on forums about the SS art work sham pain ruin helmets. These helmets are PROVEN fakes. CoA's aren't being honored, and it's all talk and finger pointing and lots of guessing, after TWO years. Many hundreds of thousands of dollars of these fakes are out there. One alone sold for 25k? As far as the vesicant paint goes, original WW2 manufactured vesicant paint is available for sale. I've seen it. Whether it's still usable, no clue. This exact same situation has over a hundred pages of discussion on another WW2 3R forum, sadly with no results other than you need to really have your ducks in a row when buying high dollar collectables. CoA's can be tossed right out the window too, and provenance (I think) is taking a hit in this case. Beyond the Jaimie fellow being questionable at this point, I think this story lies in the original helmet. Why would he (Jaimie) ruin this provenance having, known without a doubt original, m2 guaranteed combat used in the ETO helmet? 2+1=4 in this case. Something's not right. I'm of the opinion he's out, and won't be heard from. Is anyone here friends with him? Who can call or get in touch? Just a simple explanation, or "Yes, I f'd up." would be nice.

Legal action a "pipe dream" IB? Indeed far from it. If no shampain ruin victims want to pursue it, don't have attorney friends, etc., that is their individual issue. Some of those victims have received refunds/settlements. I've addressed the legal issues ad nauseam as well as the viability of legal action in the champagne rune context. In this context, IMHO, if someone got stuck with this gas paint honker for $10k, with what I see here, they would be on good grounds to file a criminal complaint as well as a civil suit for fraud. The latter sometimes provide punitive damages, attorney fees, etc.

 

There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of original German camo helmets for every original US WW2 camo helmet. Thus some of you guys who do M1s may not be has humpjob savvy as German collectors. That's not bragging, it's pathetic that the humping is so bad in German collecting. Over a decade ago I set forth the "80% Rule" (actually optimistic) that holds that 80% of German camo lids are humpjobs. Looking at the offerings of Jkash, I'd say it's easily true of US lids as well. Many are quite bad to me.

[63 RECON]

I bought a helmet from JKash a few months ago. I had it for a week plus. At first I liked it but then the longer I had it the more dissatisfied I became. I decided to return it. At that point I did not want to say anything negative about the helmet or JKash because I was afraid of reprocussions.

 

I therefore chose not to say anything other than I was returning the helmet.

 

Keep in mind he had a no strings 15 day return policy with the helmet.

 

He then (thankfully) banned me from buying off of his site.

 

He banned you for buying again from him for returning an item in the allotted time frame, and in accordance with his return policy?

[63 RECON]

Seems he was interested in what vesicant paint would look like on shells as well. Not saying its a bad thing as its an interesting topic but........

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/115353-learned-a-foolproof-way-to-tell-if-paint-is-vesicant/

[63 RECON]

Not to flog a dead horse as I know Erik from the Gettysburg Museum and Top Kibler have both confirmed the pre painted Shelton helmet was original but the below story still irks me a little bit for a few reasons. From what I can gather the high end M1 helmet collecting fraternity is quite small and you guys know your stuff and probably try and track helmets when they are sold and purchased.

 

I know from my point of view I have a repository of pictures of every Vietnam SF shirt I’ve ever seen on the forum, rest of the internet or anywhere else for that matter. This allows me to cross check if they come up again looking different or whatever. I’m sure you helmet guys do the same.

 

I can’t recall whom but someone did mention that why is there no record of this helmet being in anyone’s hands prior to the guy Kibler bought it from? Was that a guy in PA who bought it off the collector in Holland mentioned below? Also if this helmet is actually a named helmet to a paratrooper why did it change hands so much? (again that question was asked in this thread) and you’d think with such a high end helmet someone may have kept track of the previous owners.

 

Also the story below mentions this guy from the 1^st ID recovering the helmet, now I know things get confusing in War but, your kicking around in the Bulge, in the freezing cold with all your heavy cold weather gear on and all the Germans trying to kill you and you pick up a helmet from a different unit? Did you need another helmet because you lost yours? Or did you just decide to carry another helmet? I know never say never and soldiers did strange things but it just doesn’t make heaps of sense.

 

Does anyone know if the 1^st ID was anywhere near the 82^nd at the Bulge? I know that doesn’t prove anything but more out of interest is why I asked.

 

“He thinks that he misplaced his helmet during the chaos of the Battle of the Bulge. I understand that it was recovered by 1st Sergeant Reuben R. Summerfold (ASN#20204431) of BTRY-B 186FA 1st Infantry Division and eventually sold by his nephew. I was told that it has had many owners of the years, was in Europe for a time until it was purchased from someone in Holland more than a decade ago and came back to the USA. The last that I knew of it was that the Gettysburg Museum of History (Erik Dorr) purchased it in 2015 and offered it for sale in 2016. (Mr. Kibler most likely knows more about all of this than I.) My father is pleased that his old lid is still around and somewhat surprised by the attention that it has received. He said that it has weathered the years better than he has, but then, it has been resting on a shelf for all that time. I'll let him know that it is in respectful hands”

[mshaw]

Good luck on the lawsuits. I don't think some posts on an online forum would hold up in a lawsuit. And how hard would it be for jkash to show all of the posts supporting him and telling him how great his stuff is over the years. He could easily say that he has been turned on unfairly because of a deal gone bad. This would quickly turn into he said/she said kind of thing. I have been involved in 4 significant lawsuits through my job and $10,000 is chump change when lawyer bills start adding up. The legal bills could easily exceed the value of the item. Finally, jkash has been very careful in the wording on his web site. His lawyer would, most certainly, point that out. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but I wouldn't count on justice from the legal system.

[carcano]

Compared to the exemplars found locally either in Nornandy, Holland or the Ardennes, the 501st lid is a fake...... no question about it

 

Carcano

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

I was discussing just this with another collector today. He is indeed very careful about the vebiage in his sale listings.

http://wwiidropzone.com/product/5th-infantry-capt-front-seam-swivel-bail/

"Original and unaltered WWII period M1 helmet with period application of 5th Infantry Division insignia and rank."

 

Wonder if this is the only real one?

[king802]

http://wwiidropzone.com/product/5th-infantry-capt-front-seam-swivel-bail/

"Original and unaltered WWII period M1 helmet with period application of 5th Infantry Division insignia and rank."

 

Wonder if this is the only real one?

The Battle of the Bulge MP helmet he has i real and came from Luxembourg.

As for some of his past offerings no doubt we will see them hitting eBay in a mad frenzy to get rid of them.

 

Rich

[Luxembourg]

The Battle of the Bulge MP helmet he has i real and came from Luxembourg.

As for some of his past offerings no doubt we will see them hitting eBay in a mad frenzy to get rid of them.

 

Rich

 

Rich, you are right, he bought it from me.

 

Here is a topic about it:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/270293-battle-of-the-bulge-helmet/

[king802]

Rich, you are right, he bought it from me.

 

Here is a topic about it:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/270293-battle-of-the-bulge-helmet/

Alex,

You very kindly allowed me to use pictures on my M1page on Facebook.

Thanks

 

Rich

[ArchangelDM]

Im surprised to see some members have not chimed in on this thread.

[Luxembourg]

Alex,

You very kindly allowed me to use pictures on my M1page on Facebook.

Thanks

 

Rich

Oh, I didn't know that you are Rich from Facebook!

[Hambone]

A lawsuit is only laughable if you want it it to be. If someone sold me a $10,000 turd, it would get ugly quickly. It doesn't hurt that I sue people for a living, but I'd be going down legal roads that would make money squeak out of somewhere in short order. This sort of thing only lasts as long as people realize that it's easy to escape scot-free, and that collectors can be kicked around because they think getting justice is hard or a waste of time. The first time one of these people loses their televisions and microwaves and motorcycles because the sheriff has shown up and taken them away for an auction, it may actually cause some stuff to change. That the 3rd Reich collectors decided to turtle and talk each other out of suing the crooks means little to me. They are permitted to be complacent with their $20,000.00 spray painted paperweights. I don't do that.

Spot on and well said. Humpers and fake mongers bone those who allow it and refund those who don't. They see refund, i.e., an interest free loan, as their worst case. Imagine how much shoplifting and robbery we would have if the worst case for the criminal when caught was to be required to return what was stolen.

[Hambone]

Good luck on the lawsuits. I don't think some posts on an online forum would hold up in a lawsuit. And how hard would it be for jkash to show all of the posts supporting him and telling him how great his stuff is over the years. He could easily say that he has been turned on unfairly because of a deal gone bad. This would quickly turn into he said/she said kind of thing. I have been involved in 4 significant lawsuits through my job and $10,000 is chump change when lawyer bills start adding up. The legal bills could easily exceed the value of the item. Finally, jkash has been very careful in the wording on his web site. His lawyer would, most certainly, point that out. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but I wouldn't count on justice from the legal system.

My experiences have been quite different, on a regular, active, daily basis for over 20 years. With all due respect, such blanket generalizations and cynicism usually derive from relatively limited experience (you've had one experience and it was bad, thus in your world 100% of such experiences are bad); lack of true knowledge and understanding; unreasonable expectations; bad facts; unreasonableness; and/or substandard lawyering and/or substandard client. You don't think that it is "more likely than not" (more than 50%) that the gas paint humper is fake and that sufficient evidence has been submitted here to show that? Are all the people here who believe that boobs, dumber than a judge or jury?

 

Guys, once again, as stated during the shampain ruins hoax debacle, if you're a fraud victim, consult a real attorney in your jurisdiction. Don't rely upon the internets or a forum poster who has had a bad experience or someone who sat on a jury once or was a witness in a trial or who has seen all the Matlock reruns, etc.

[Hambone]

Also the story below mentions this guy from the 1^st ID recovering the helmet, now I know things get confusing in War but, your kicking around in the Bulge, in the freezing cold with all your heavy cold weather gear on and all the Germans trying to kill you and you pick up a helmet from a different unit? Did you need another helmet because you lost yours? Or did you just decide to carry another helmet? I know never say never and soldiers did strange things but it just doesnt

Does anyone know if the 1^st ID was anywhere near the 82^nd at the Bulge? I know that doesnt prove anything but more out of interest is why I asked.

 

He thinks that he misplaced his helmet during the chaos of the Battle of the Bulge. I understand that it was recovered by 1st Sergeant Reuben R. Summerfold (ASN#20204431) of BTRY-B 186FA 1st Infantry Division and eventually sold by his nephew. I was told that it has had many owners of the years, was in Europe for a time until it was purchased from someone in Holland more than a decade ago and came back to the USA. The last that I knew of it was that the Gettysburg Museum of History (Erik Dorr) purchased it in 2015 and offered it for sale in 2016. (Mr. Kibler most likely knows more about all of this than I.) My father is pleased that his old lid is still around and somewhat surprised by the attention that it has received. He said that it has weathered the years better than he has, but then, it has been resting on a shelf for all that time. I'll let him know that it is in respectful hands

After reading the "story" again it appears to me to be rather contrived and oddly "detailed" in a convenient manner. Would it be that difficult to independently track down and verify this story teller as who he says he is and whether this story is accurate? Based upon his complete knowledge of the helmet, his visitation of it multiple times, eagerness to discuss details of it, etc., it seems like he would be happy to discuss this, independently, particularly if this cherished helmet had been vandalized by gas paint for resale. Trust but verify. My spidey sense tells me that there is much more to the story.

[nirvana]

My experiences have been quite different, on a regular, active, daily basis for over 20 years. With all due respect, such blanket generalizations and cynicism usually derive from relatively limited experience (you've had one experience and it was bad, thus in your world 100% of such experiences are bad); lack of true knowledge and understanding; unreasonable expectations; bad facts; unreasonableness; and/or substandard lawyering and/or substandard client. You don't think that it is "more likely than not" (more than 50%) that the gas paint humper is fake and that sufficient evidence has been submitted here to show that? Are all the people here who believe that boobs, dumber than a judge or jury?

 

Guys, once again, as stated during the shampain ruins hoax debacle, if you're a fraud victim, consult a real attorney in your jurisdiction. Don't rely upon the internets or a forum poster who has had a bad experience or someone who sat on a jury once or was a witness in a trial or who has seen all the Matlock reruns, etc.

 

I think hambone would agree, a case of someone selling bad militaria with a missive amount of exposure would be a fun discovery process, deposition too. Where did you get the helmet? Names. Dates. Places. Receipts. I'll need to talk to them too. The "old collection" crap won't cut it under oath, and "I don't remember" is an entertaining answer unto itself. You don't remember where you got a $10,000.00 helmet or iron cross from? PayPal and bank records, maybe even business tax returns, unless someone is running a possible five-figure enterprise and not filing returns. Walk in with a pile of printed out forum posts, Facebook updates, Instagram pics and website printouts? It's like an orgy of evidence.

[63 RECON]

Gentleman, I feel as though I need to address this situation as it involves my Museum. The Gettysburg Museum of History did in fact have the Shelton helmet for some time. We obtained it from another member on this forum.  It was also owned by another advanced Airborne collectors at one time. Part of our Museum mission is: “To Honor Veterans and tell Their Stories”. I feel a deep sadness as one of their stories has now been allegedly tainted by altering his helmet. We at the Gettysburg Museum are very limited with by room so when we obtained a second M-2 painted 505^th helmet with lion and cannon ball tactical symbols with Veteran provenance we decided to let the Shelton helmet go. We put it for sale and a so called “family friend” of Shelton (who turned out not to be but a former employee) took it upon herself to accuse us of “selling stolen property” and “dishonoring veterans” on social media sites. As stated by Shelton’s son on this thread he lost his helmet at the battle of the bulge and the helmet was brought home by another veteran.  We at The Gettysburg Museum of History take our reputation very seriously and addressed this slander with our legal team. During this time our Attorneys found Shelton’s family and we decided to try to bring the Veteran here to the Museum to see  his helmet. This never happened because of the Col. Shelton’s health. Shelton’s family was very nice. Some time passed  and because of all the legal issues surrounding the slander said against us, the helmet to me was a bad memory and once again I decided to part with it. It went to Jamie. I now regret parting with it because Shelton’s family came to see me without the Vet but I had to tell them It was gone. They were very nice and I really wanted to let them see the helmet. The family visited here just a few days ago. Now I see the helmet was allegedly altered and I am very saddened by this. If it is true it is a real blow to the historical community but mostly Col. Shelton and his family. It has also once again brought slanderous and potentially libelous statement being made again my museum on another page. This is being taken care of by our legal team. I think we all should be careful about wild accusations because this will have legal issues attached to it. I hesitated chiming in and did so against legal advise but I felt I must, the whole world is watching this one.  A few things I can clear up. The helmet is 100% authentic when we had it, many good people looked at it and blessed it. The straps may have been replacements. The liner did have a Lt. bar and it did have the name in the leather sweat band. The person who wrote on this forum as Shelton’s son is really him. His family stated that they had commented on the forum when they where here just a few days ago.  I really think we should take a step back and see if Jamie addresses this situation. We operate a free museum and charge nothing to see our collection and we try our best to vet everything.  We also try to honor Veterans stories the best we can. Presenting our Museum collection in an unrestricted way as we do and sharing it via the internet will open us up to scrutiny and we take responsibility when we do something wrong. We hope this matter will be resolved, but think until Jamie addresses it we must be careful about what we say especially about other people involved and people who did nothing wrong.  Thank you for reading this, and please stop by the museum and introduce yourself. I do not post because I am very busy most of time with our work but I do read the forum now and then and do know many of you through our Facebook page. 

 

 

Hello Erik,

 

I'm going to ask a stupid question here that I've asked Tom and again, I mean no disrespect and ask purely out of curiosity and to keep the ideas flowing. I've looked on your website and you have some great items and seem to know your stuff very well. 

 

How did you know the un-messed with Shelton helmet was real? was it from experience? or was it that you purchased it from a well respected collector?

 

What process did you go through and reasonable steps did you take to ascertain that the helmet was in fact real?

 

Whom was it that positively IDed the helmet to belong to Joseph Shelton? and that the story told by the son was in fact how it came to be in the US? did the son show a picture of the helmet to his father and the father recognized it as the one he "misplaced" in the bulge?

 

I ask because this all seems very convenient, you purchased the helmet from someone then decide to get rid of it because of bad blood over other things to Jamie whom I'm assuming you knew before hand, then the family turns up to see the helmet which is not at your museum anymore so they post that story on here after 8 or so months which i find strange that Jamie didn't talk about when first posting the original unpainted Shelton helmet, because if true its a cracking story.

 

Or maybe Jamie didn't know it when he purchased it, which again is strange that this helmet allegedly went through the hands of so many collectors and yet no one apart from the Son who had never seen the helmet knows the story quite well.

 

I can only surmise that you told the Son about the forum and where to find the thread about the helmet?. So he posts the story and then only a day or so ago they tell you that they have been on the forum.....so it stands to reason your in contact with the family yeah?

 

And yet we hear nothing again from the son on how he feels on the issue that we are all so keen to get to the bottom of, which really is not that bigger deal. 

 

Again not accusing or anything just throwing some ideas around.

 

cheers

 

Ryan

[Blacksmith]

As fascinating as the specifics of ANY situation may be, I tend to look at what lessons can be learned from it. Please indulge a skosh of metaphor, as I put this into a fictional context:

 

An employee ("Jimbo") is walking down a warehouse aisle, carrying a large three-tier pink birthday cake to the break room for a surprise party at noon. At 12:10pm, his co-workers get concerned about the cake, and Jimbo to some extent, and set out searching for him. They go in different directions, and Brenda quickly yells out, "He's over here!" The team gathers around Jimbo, as he's laying - shellacked in pink frosting - wrapped up in an extension cord. After briefly talking with him, they learn that he tripped over the extension cord that somebody ran across the aisle. Now that extension cord has been there ever since the outlet in the break room stopped working, and everyone has been stepping over it for months. In doing so, many folks thought to themselves, "man, somebody is going to biff on that thing!" But nobody said anything.

 

There's a sign in the warehouse that reads, "Safety, it's all of our jobs : If you see something, say something". There should be zero reluctance to mention something you think is wrong - even if the supervisor ran the cord. If you get fired over it, you're working in the wrong place. Pointing out the extension cord only while Jimbo is combing frosting out of his eyebrows accomplishes nothing.

 

Not that he needs me to, but I commend Tarbridge for fighting to keep this topic open, while managing it to civil discourse. I believe he helps create a place that encourages unbiased and respectful challenges, which other moderators can learn from.

 

There is no place to 'hide' on the Internet, and the conditions that provided darkness for pick-pockets to ply their trade no longer exist. A small cadre of elite "experts" has been replaced with crowd-sourcing and collective thought. COAs giving way to peer review, and provenance becoming secondary to the traits of the item. The "woodwork", "vet buy", and "30 year" claims have lost their luster. In essence, 'power' has decentralized, and gone to 'the people' - where it should rest. With that comes responsibility. BE empowered, wield it with humility and compassion, and keep each other - and our beloved hobby - safe.

 

Thank you for indulging me.