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M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash


jkash23686
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If the helmet came from a collection, it's not infeasible that it was faked before you even got it, especially if you paid a lot of money for it.

Agreed, I think this thread proves that even if it came from a "reputable" collector, it doesn't mean it's real.

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Respectfully, I think it's more than just "whatever reason". I think we all feel somewhat duped. We see concrete evidence of a faked camo helmet and a liner that has been moved from one high-end helmet to another either knowingly or unknowingly by a forum member held in high regard. I think this teaches us that we can't just blindly trust reputation and I think that is a good takeaway. I also think there are collectors on this forum staring at centerpiece helmets wondering if they have lost a bunch of money. I have one that originated from DZ that I have refused to sell because of my suspicions. I talked a forum member out of buying it from me because I didn't feel good about it. He had seen it in a picture of my collection and wanted to buy it. Depending on how this shakes out, I may share it later for inspection. I had it in the hands of some knowledgeable collectors at SOS and no-one liked it.

 

I do believe that DZ has bought and sold real helmets. I don't think that these few taint all of the others. Eventually, I think owners of helmets that might be suspect should try and establish some chain of ownership prior to DZ. That might confirm or clear up suspicion.

 

I'm giving DZ the benefit of the doubt until we hear something. Hopefully we will. One thing is for sure, someone has "faked" us out.

 

Doug

Respectfully Doug,

The "whatever reason" are not my words or inflection...I said "whatever the reason" which just means more than one reason.If I posted just one reason I think I would have been gigged for that also.I understand the severity and depth of this thread and the consequences to all collectors. It infects all Militaria collectibles and we have to be vigilant.

I don't know who is guilty of what but there looks to be serious problems...people are pointing fingers.Next time...please speak up...send PM's...whatever it takes.

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GettysburgMuseumOfHistory

Gentleman, I feel as though I need to address this situation as it involves my Museum. The Gettysburg Museum of History did in fact have the Shelton helmet for some time. We obtained it from another member on this forum. It was also owned by another advanced Airborne collectors at one time. Part of our Museum mission is: “To Honor Veterans and tell Their Stories”. I feel a deep sadness as one of their stories has now been allegedly tainted by altering his helmet. We at the Gettysburg Museum are very limited with by room so when we obtained a second M-2 painted 505th helmet with lion and cannon ball tactical symbols with Veteran provenance we decided to let the Shelton helmet go. We put it for sale and a so called “family friend” of Shelton (who turned out not to be but a former employee) took it upon herself to accuse us of “selling stolen property” and “dishonoring veterans” on social media sites. As stated by Shelton’s son on this thread he lost his helmet at the battle of the bulge and the helmet was brought home by another veteran. We at The Gettysburg Museum of History take our reputation very seriously and addressed this slander with our legal team. During this time our Attorneys found Shelton’s family and we decided to try to bring the Veteran here to the Museum to see his helmet. This never happened because of the Col. Shelton’s health. Shelton’s family was very nice. Some time passed and because of all the legal issues surrounding the slander said against us, the helmet to me was a bad memory and once again I decided to part with it. It went to Jamie. I now regret parting with it because Shelton’s family came to see me without the Vet but I had to tell them It was gone. They were very nice and I really wanted to let them see the helmet. The family visited here just a few days ago. Now I see the helmet was allegedly altered and I am very saddened by this. If it is true it is a real blow to the historical community but mostly Col. Shelton and his family. It has also once again brought slanderous and potentially libelous statement being made again my museum on another page. This is being taken care of by our legal team. I think we all should be careful about wild accusations because this will have legal issues attached to it. I hesitated chiming in and did so against legal advise but I felt I must, the whole world is watching this one. A few things I can clear up. The helmet is 100% authentic when we had it, many good people looked at it and blessed it. The straps may have been replacements. The liner did have a Lt. bar and it did have the name in the leather sweat band. The person who wrote on this forum as Shelton’s son is really him. His family stated that they had commented on the forum when they where here just a few days ago. I really think we should take a step back and see if Jamie addresses this situation. We operate a free museum and charge nothing to see our collection and we try our best to vet everything. We also try to honor Veterans stories the best we can. Presenting our Museum collection in an unrestricted way as we do and sharing it via the internet will open us up to scrutiny and we take responsibility when we do something wrong. We hope this matter will be resolved, but think until Jamie addresses it we must be careful about what we say especially about other people involved and people who did nothing wrong. Thank you for reading this, and please stop by the museum and introduce yourself. I do not post because I am very busy most of time with our work but I do read the forum now and then and do know many of you through our Facebook page.

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jbassmaster18

This whole situation is sad this is EXACTLY why I sold my entire collection in February and I was a ghost on the forums. WW2 collecting became not fun and all about a sea of fakes out there. Sad. Truly sad.....

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GeneralCheese

Gentleman, I feel as though I need to address this situation as it involves my Museum. The Gettysburg Museum of History did in fact have the Shelton helmet for some time. We obtained it from another member on this forum. It was also owned by another advanced Airborne collectors at one time. Part of our Museum mission is: “To Honor Veterans and tell Their Stories”. I feel a deep sadness as one of their stories has now been allegedly tainted by altering his helmet. We at the Gettysburg Museum are very limited with by room so when we obtained a second M-2 painted 505th helmet with lion and cannon ball tactical symbols with Veteran provenance we decided to let the Shelton helmet go. We put it for sale and a so called “family friend” of Shelton (who turned out not to be but a former employee) took it upon herself to accuse us of “selling stolen property” and “dishonoring veterans” on social media sites. As stated by Shelton’s son on this thread he lost his helmet at the battle of the bulge and the helmet was brought home by another veteran. We at The Gettysburg Museum of History take our reputation very seriously and addressed this slander with our legal team. During this time our Attorneys found Shelton’s family and we decided to try to bring the Veteran here to the Museum to see his helmet. This never happened because of the Col. Shelton’s health. Shelton’s family was very nice. Some time passed and because of all the legal issues surrounding the slander said against us, the helmet to me was a bad memory and once again I decided to part with it. It went to Jamie. I now regret parting with it because Shelton’s family came to see me without the Vet but I had to tell them It was gone. They were very nice and I really wanted to let them see the helmet. The family visited here just a few days ago. Now I see the helmet was allegedly altered and I am very saddened by this. If it is true it is a real blow to the historical community but mostly Col. Shelton and his family. It has also once again brought slanderous and potentially libelous statement being made again my museum on another page. This is being taken care of by our legal team. I think we all should be careful about wild accusations because this will have legal issues attached to it. I hesitated chiming in and did so against legal advise but I felt I must, the whole world is watching this one. A few things I can clear up. The helmet is 100% authentic when we had it, many good people looked at it and blessed it. The straps may have been replacements. The liner did have a Lt. bar and it did have the name in the leather sweat band. The person who wrote on this forum as Shelton’s son is really him. His family stated that they had commented on the forum when they where here just a few days ago. I really think we should take a step back and see if Jamie addresses this situation. We operate a free museum and charge nothing to see our collection and we try our best to vet everything. We also try to honor Veterans stories the best we can. Presenting our Museum collection in an unrestricted way as we do and sharing it via the internet will open us up to scrutiny and we take responsibility when we do something wrong. We hope this matter will be resolved, but think until Jamie addresses it we must be careful about what we say especially about other people involved and people who did nothing wrong. Thank you for reading this, and please stop by the museum and introduce yourself. I do not post because I am very busy most of time with our work but I do read the forum now and then and do know many of you through our Facebook page.

 

Can you post some sort of proof you are who you say you are? I don't doubt what you say is true, but we have two accounts in this thread with <5 posts vouching for each other.

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I did not get any impression from any part of this discussion that the Gettysburg Museum Of History was in any way at fault.

Doesn't matter who is representing it.

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GettysburgMuseumOfHistory

 

Can you post some sort of proof you are who you say you are? I don't doubt what you say is true, but we have two accounts in this thread with <5 posts vouching for each other.

How do I prove who I am? My name is Erik Dorr curator of The Gettysburg Museum of History

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GettysburgMuseumOfHistory

I did not get any impression from any part of this discussion that the Gettysburg Museum Of History was in any way at fault.

Doesn't matter who is representing it.

thank you, there was some really bad stuff against us on another facebook page not here, sorry about the confusion

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1966ww2collector

Fair enough. I don't think it's as easy as just speaking up. I have sent PMs to various people during my time here about the member in question including the member himself. We all know there is a potential "swot" that comes with saying the "wrong" thing in this community. Some members are considered above reproach. I for one significantly slowed down on my postings here because I didn't want to get in trouble or be talked down to. I agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to say things. I have had a bad feeling about this situation for quite a while. I have voiced it in person as well. Up until now, there hasn't been a good way to deal with these feelings some of us are now admitting to.

I do commend the moderators for allowing this thread to continue to flow after being locked several times. This situation is a dagger to the heart of what we all enjoy and invest in. It is an emotional time.

As I stated before, I hope the member has a good explanation. The clouds look ominous though.

Doug

 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

 

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Can you post some sort of proof you are who you say you are? I don't doubt what you say is true, but we have two accounts in this thread with

 

 

IMO, I think this is getting to be a little too accusatory on an open forum. If you have a question like this, you should PM a moderator.

 

I appreciate Erik weighing in on this thread. I thank him for his response.

 

...Kat

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manayunkman

Drive to Gettysburg it's beautiful especially in the fall and spring and not far from VA.

 

There is more than just the 'Burg Museum of History to see and plenty of places to shop.

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GeneralCheese

How do I prove who I am? My name is Erik Dorr curator of The Gettysburg Museum of History

 

A photo of something in the museum would probably work.

 

 

GeneralCheese, on 08 Aug 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:snapback.png

 

Can you post some sort of proof you are who you say you are? I don't doubt what you say is true, but we have two accounts in this thread with <5 posts vouching for each other.

 

 

IMO, I think this is getting to be a little too accusatory on an open forum. If you have a question like this, you should PM a moderator.

 

I appreciate Erik weighing in on this thread. I thank him for his response.

 

...Kat

 

 

It isn't wrong to ask for some proof here, I don't know how this is accusatory at all. If we want to figure out where this helmet originated and if it was actually real, we need to verify the chain of possession first.

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GeneralCheese this is ridiculous.

 

Erik has been more than helpful. We know Tom sold the helmet to the museum (Erik) and the museum sold it to jkash.

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A photo of something in the museum would probably work.

 

 

It isn't wrong to ask for some proof here, I don't know how this is accusatory at all. If we want to figure out where this helmet originated and if it was actually real, we need to verify the chain of possession first.

The Shelton helmet was for sale in the museum early last year if I remember correctly. I was at the museum and asked to see it. Erik himself let me see the helmet in hand. Erik is who he says he is, and I was fortunate enough to see first hand what the helmet was. The chain of custody is clear up to when Tom owned it. Asking Erik for a photo is something in his museum to prove himself is wild.

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GeneralCheese

GeneralCheese this is ridiculous.

 

Erik has been more than helpful. We know Tom sold the helmet to the museum (Erik) and the museum sold it to jkash.

 

How do we know it's actually him?

 

This is the internet, it is easy to pose as someone you are not. Especially being that this is not a long established user of the forum.

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GeneralCheese

The Shelton helmet was for sale in the museum early last year if I remember correctly. I was at the museum and asked to see it. Erik himself let me see the helmet in hand. Erik is who he says he is, and I was fortunate enough to see first hand what the helmet was. The chain of custody is clear up to when Tom owned it. Asking Erik for a photo is something in his museum to prove himself is wild.

 

No, it really isn't. If any of you use reddit, you'd know that on AMAs (ask-me-anythings), people must post proof. Hell, they even made the PRESIDENT post proof when he hosted an AMA.

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GeneralCheese

The point is, it doesn't matter who owned it prior to Jamie.

 

I'd disagree. If it turns out to have been a fake originally, then we have a long line of either a person or people pulling a fast one on each other. I'm not saying everyone who owned this helmet at one point scammed the next, but I'm firmly in the boat that there is no way anyone would destroy a real helmet like that for a $600 increase in asking price.

 

And if anyone here wants to speak as an authority on this helmet as it was, they should be able to prove that they owned it.

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No, it really isn't. If any of you use reddit, you'd know that on AMAs (ask-me-anythings), people must post proof. Hell, they even made the PRESIDENT post proof when he hosted an AMA.

Well luckily for us the phone number to his museum is public, maybe you could call him and ask him for proof.

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USMC-RECON0321

Just to get things back on track of the history of this helmet. Here is the story direct from the Vet's son telling what his father told him about loosing his helmet and what was known about it being recovered by a 1st Sgt Reuben R. Summerfold and later years being sold for the first time into the collector market by that soldiers nephew.

 

Now I didn't confirm anyone in this story as being who they are claiming to be though.

 

Troy

 

 

I realize that this thread is almost 8 months old, but I wanted to add some information to the conversation. My father, Joseph Richards Shelton, Jr. graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., on June 6, 1944. (The D-Day invasion was announced at the graduation ceremony.) By December 1944, he was a lieutenant in the 505 Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, leading paratroopers in Belgium during the Ardennes Counteroffensive (Battle of the Bulge). In this offensive, he was aide to Brig. General James Gavin, commanding officer of the 82nd. He survived that adventure. Many of his friends and troops did not. He went on to jump and fight in the Korean War (187th Infantry Regiment) and in Vietnam (10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), a.k.a., Green Berets). He survived those, too, retired as a Lt. Colonel in the mid-1960's, and is living in Cornelius, N.C. at age 96.

 

​He thinks that he misplaced his helmet during the chaos of the Battle of the Bulge. I understand that it was recovered by 1st Sergeant Reuben R. Summerfold (ASN#20204431) of BTRY-B 186FA 1st Infantry Division and eventually sold by his nephew. I was told that it has had many owners of the years, was in Europe for a time until it was purchased from someone in Holland more than a decade ago and came back to the USA. The last that I knew of it was that the Gettysburg Museum of History (Erik Dorr) purchased it in 2015 and offered it for sale in 2016. (Mr. Kibler most likely knows more about all of this than I.) My father is pleased that his old lid is still around and somewhat surprised by the attention that it has received. He said that it has weathered the years better than he has, but then, it has been resting on a shelf for all that time. I'll let him know that it is in respectful hands.

​ - Stuart Shelton

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A photo of something in the museum would probably work.

 

 

It isn't wrong to ask for some proof here, I don't know how this is accusatory at all. If we want to figure out where this helmet originated and if it was actually real, we need to verify the chain of possession first.

 

 

As others have said, this is ridiculous. How on earth would a photo of something in the museum work? Anyone who ever visited the museum could post a picture. Any photo can be altered.

 

This really is getting out of hand.

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GeneralCheese

 

 

As others have said, this is ridiculous. How on earth would a photo of something in the museum work? Anyone who ever visited the museum could post a picture. Any photo can be altered.

 

This really is getting out of hand.

 

If this really is Erik Dorr, it should be easy for him to post something that is in the museum. But you might be right, this isn't about him. It's about a helmet. A helmet that he claims was real, while there are doubts about it's authenticity originally.

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Have had this one for a few months now by way of a trade. Nice repaired M2 with original straps and Westinghouse para liner IDed to Lt. Joseph Shelton of the 505th PIR.

His ASN is on the shell and name is on the sweatband, which I couldnt get a good pic of because Im having some camera issues. I added the Airborne chin cup for display.

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder what Jamie traded to the museum to get the Shelton Helmet ?????

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