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Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash


jkash23686
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My personal theory is that unless a helmet comes from non-collector, misidentified and for a steal of a price, there is always the chance someone is trying to sell a fake.

That is why the buyer needs to be knowledgeable and ask questions. Provenance on rare items is important.

 

There is a big difference in my opinion of a dealer who accidentally sells a fake and knowingly sells a fake.

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Very true. If you look at the bottom of this thread, there are 4 "google search" people reading this thread. While it could be anyone, it could also be a member who doesn't log in.

 

Don't forget the current 15 "guests"...those are folks reading without logging in.

 

So between Google and "guests", that's 19 unknown readers of the thread.

 

If we had any announcements about the forum to make, this would be a great time and place to do it! :) (Maybe a link to the donation button???)

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There is a well known and respected collector who most of us from the East coast know that once bought a repo inland paratrooper liner as a repo and sold it as a repo at the same show and then bought it back from the same guy a week later thinking it was real because of a new paint job and some dirt. The way Jamie swaps helmets around it's possible that something similar happened here. The thing is any number of things could have happened but we won't know until Jamie gets back. I am not trying to justify anything I am simply saying you can't figure this out without all the details.

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As the thread chases down theories and hypotheses, this is a great time to make a donation to keep the forum alive and running. Without this forum, this type of open discussion and education would not exist, and I guarantee many more fake helmets would be sold.

 

If you can afford a $10,000 helmet...or even a $10 helmet...why not chip in and keep the forum a place for education?

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/donate.html

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GeneralCheese

There is a well known and respected collector who most of us from the East coast know that once bought a repo inland paratrooper liner as a repo and sold it as a repo at the same show and then bought it back from the same guy a week later thinking it was real because of a new paint job and some dirt. The way Jamie swaps helmets around it's possible that something similar happened here. The thing is any number of things could have happened but we won't know until Jamie gets back. I am not trying to justify anything I am simply saying you can't figure this out without all the details.

 

Very good point, however that does not explain the liner showing up in another of Jamie's helmets.

 

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USMC-RECON0321

There is a well known and respected collector who most of us from the East coast know that once bought a repo inland paratrooper liner as a repo and sold it as a repo at the same show and then bought it back from the same guy a week later thinking it was real because of a new paint job and some dirt. The way Jamie swaps helmets around it's possible that something similar happened here. The thing is any number of things could have happened but we won't know until Jamie gets back. I am not trying to justify anything I am simply saying you can't figure this out without all the details.

 

Ben,

 

Sorry but not a chance. Way to many identifying factors to not notice when getting the helmet back if that was the case and not to mention changing up the liners, with the Shelton liner ending up in another helmet on his website for sale.

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Ben,

 

Sorry but not a chance. Way to many identifying factors to not notice when getting the helmet back if that was the case and not to mention changing up the liners, with the Shelton liner ending up in another helmet on his website for sale.

 

 

I agree....

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Ben,

 

Sorry but not a chance. Way to many identifying factors to not notice when getting the helmet back if that was the case and not to mention changing up the liners, with the Shelton liner ending up in another helmet on his website for sale.

Agreed, there's no way he got it mistaken. It never left his hands.

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RustyCanteen

 

Very true. If you look at the bottom of this thread, there are 4 "google search" people reading this thread. While it could be anyone, it could also be a member who doesn't log in.

 

Hi,

 

Actually, that is just a search engine bot that crawls the web in order to index sites.

 

From Google:

googlesearch.jpg

 

A search engine is just a way to pull information out of a directory, instead of going page by page to find a number in a phone book, the search is automated. The completed search results you get will have come from the directory, but the directory is built by a 'crawler' that will go from site to site looking for words. If not for the work they do, none of us would be able to to turn to "Google" for our answers. :)

 

Now, more in line with your comment - almost anyone can view the forum as a 'guest' - but they cannot post.

 

RC

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Tom, thank you.

 

I do however have some questions for you, and in no way do I mean to call in to question your expertise, but this is important to trying to figure this all out. When you bought the helmet, was it sourced from the woodwork or not? Also, what did you pay for it, or more generally did the seller know what they had?

 

My personal theory is that unless a helmet comes from non-collector, misidentified and for a steal of a price, there is always the chance someone is trying to sell a fake.

 

First - I am by no means an EXPERT. I'm a long-time collector, blessed with a lot of collector friends and so have seen and handled some amazing pieces.

 

Second, as already stated and graciously mentioned by Peter, I purchased a collection in early 2015 to include a 101st ID'd reinforced jump set, several of Jack Agnew's items (from the Filthy 13) and a couple of helmets to include the one that started this thread. The collector knew what he had.

 

It has been questioned more than once - Why didn't I keep this helmet due to it's rarity. Simply, the collection cost me a LOT of money (I didn't buy the helmet individually - but as part of a group). My eyes were on keeping the reinforced jump set named to Cpl. Jay Barr (which I still retain). At the time, I owned a factory D-bail. I simply could not afford to keep it all. (Wish I could have). I sold the remaining items to Erik Dorr.

 

Respectfully to all - there is no need to rehash what has already been stated, as it just convolutes the topic at hand. In my opinion (and Erik Dorr's, and other respected collectors), everything was unquestionably real. Speculation as to it being fake prior to my acquisition of the helmet has risen. I based my belief on it's authenticity based on my experience AND that of all of the others who handled it as part of the transaction.

 

Maybe that suits you, maybe not.

 

I enjoy research, as it is akin to my long-based profession as a police officer and investigations.

 

I'm not sure what else I can tell you all.

 

Thanks for reading my long-winded explanation.

 

TK

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Ben,

 

Sorry but not a chance. Way to many identifying factors to not notice when getting the helmet back if that was the case and not to mention changing up the liners, with the Shelton liner ending up in another helmet on his website for sale.

 

^This. There is no plausible explanation here. He sold one complete helmet, and then bought two back from the same person, each with a piece of his original?

 

I question the overall authenticity of the helmet. Once the chin straps appeared to be replaced, all bets are off. White paint is cheap, and a kitchen knife can carve into a sweatband.

 

This isn't a case of adding something to increase the value. It's removing other stuff, and then adding stuff. If the name was there, he would've mentioned it. If he thought it was original, I doubt he would've scrubbed it off.

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A large number of european collectors who made and still do make legitimate barn, attic or dug finds and who were careless enough to post their findings here were also subjected to this individual's mercyless comments ( and of a lot of others, whose DNA was not tested in the process anyways ).Consequently, a HUGE lot of them have now chosen not to show anything anymore on this forum... and to stay as far AWAY from it as they possibly can.

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Guys he point here is that Jamie is very very knowledgeable about helmets , more so than most and he has a website that sells helmets.

IF anyone knew how to spot a fake or argue the paint on a helmet it was him.

He has the original helmet and is now selling an altered version of it with a gas detection Camo paint scheme.

 

He knows what he's done ,

And i feel very very used that there literally has been a wolf in the sheeps pen for a very long time.

 

This is my opinion and my opinion alone

 

IF by chance this all gets explained and I'm wrong I will gladly apolagose, until then it's as clear as day.

I don't know Dean. I believe the forum and helmet community has put up a blind faith.

 

On November 29th 2011, Jamie posted a very suspect 505th camo helmet on another forum. The helmet had reproduction chinstraps. Jamie tried very hard to convince the memebers the straps were original. Until enough memebers agreed they were reproduction, in that case he said he only paid $30 for the helmet (at a flea market) so it was no real lose. This could have very well been a first attempt to get aproval from the forum on one of his creations. That was 6 years ago, 6 years ago one of the top helmet dealer couldn't identify reproduction parts in a helmet.

 

Jamie has not heen a helmet collector for very long, judging by some of his first post. In that 6 years he's gained the trust of the forum and the helmet collecting community. And has shown dozens and extremely rare helmets that have seemly come out of thin air. Never been seen in the collecting community. Helmets 10 years ago experienced collectors would have told you "keep dreaming" this includes countless 82nd airborne helmets, 517th. 551st, 505, 508th, three ranger helmets, 502nd helmets, 501st helmets, 506th helmets... where were these helmets coming from? The few times I asked him where he was getting these helmets I got a similar generic response. "I got it from an old collection that I trust" including one of his 5th ranger helmets that was later put on ebay for a $5800 dollar Buy It Now. Which considering the rarity... is a good price.

 

But why are these rare helmets being sold for such decent prices? Or on ebay at all? Wouldn't rare high end painted helmets stay in a small private collectors circle as they have been for years?

 

The camo 509th on his Instagram was sold for 4k... considering the condition and rarity if original wouldn't you expect to see a higher price tag? They seem like quick sales fueled by a good reputation.

 

I've seen some of his helmets get questioned by other memebers followed by members here and other forums shut it down simply by saying they brought the helmet from Jamie. A highly knowledgeable and trusted helmet collector, and the "Jamie knows his stuff" "Jamie has the best collecting" and "I'd trust it coming from Jamie" comments would just pour in.

 

Sure he's posted some known original examples, but his flashy AB helmets found their way in the mix in high numbers.

 

And out of all these helmets shown by Jamie over the years that seem just too darn good to be true? He doesn't own any of them anymore.

 

That is a lot of helmets sold and now sitting in private collections and I hate to say it but I think some of us need to come to terms that the US painted helmets community could have very well been deceived by what could very well be the biggest faker to hit the community.

 

If you own a helmet from him, especially a camo one or a airborne marked one, I'd be very very suspect of it.

 

Unfortunately I do not see a good outcome coming from this.

 

J

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GeneralCheese

Jamie has not heen a helmet collector for very long, judging by some of his first post. In that 6 years he's gained the trust of the forum and the helmet collecting community. And has shown dozens and extremely rare helmets that have seemly come out of thin air. Never been seen in the collecting community. Helmets 10 years ago experienced collectors would have told you "keep dreaming" this includes countless 82nd airborne helmets, 517th. 551st, 505, 508th, three ranger helmets, 502nd helmets, 501st helmets, 506th helmets... where were these helmets coming from? The few times I asked him where he was getting these helmets I got a similar generic response. "I got it from an old collection that I trust" including one of his 5th ranger helmets that was later put on ebay for a $5800 dollar Buy It Now. Which considering the rarity... is a good price.

 

I will admit I was one of those who blindly believed every amazing helmet he found was original without a doubt. But looking back now, it is awfully suspicious that he was getting a once-in-a-lifetime find every month or so, all without these incredible helmets having been documented in any other collections or catalogs. Now, a lot of people will say the same about me and my luck on ebay, but in that case I can provide links and usernames of the people I bought them from. No such thing from Jamie either, not even a grainy picture from the estate sales or flea markets where they were "found"

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Agree with everything Justin. Where did all this stuff come from is the first logical question? An old collection? Then which one, we all know how small the collecting community is.

 

People waiting for him to respond...I would be shocked if he ever did.

 

Wasn't he a moderator at one point?

 

Pete

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Burning Hazard

+1 for both Justing and GeneralCheese,

 

I'm not an airborne collector and never owned a painted airborne helmet as they were out of my price range.

 

I also began blindly trusting jkash because, well, he handled more M2's than I'll ever see in my lifetime and I considered him our resident airborne expert along with sgtdorango.

 

However, once he started posting the nearly non-existent Ranger helmets and that 501st PIR helmet I began questioning him as well, but dared no to speak up on the forum because he had such a good reputation here.

 

Guess this is why some of us feel so betrayed...

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+1 for both Justing and GeneralCheese,

 

I'm not an airborne collector and never owned a painted airborne helmet as they were out of my price range.

 

I also began blindly trusting jkash because, well, he handled more M2's than I'll ever see in my lifetime and I considered him our resident airborne expert along with sgtdorango.

 

However, once he started posting the nearly non-existent Ranger helmets and that 501st PIR helmet I began questioning him as well, but dared no to speak up on the forum because he had such a good reputation here.

 

 

I noticed the camo M2 was the same helmet as the 505th in this thread a few days before RobinB outted it. Myself a few other members discussed it, but all of us were nervous to make such allegations due to a forum outrage. I am glad someone brought it to light for us.

 

J

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Just curious, other than selling helmets on a web site, does anyone know what the original poster does for a living?

That information is out there, I would suggest doing some personal research to avoid a turn in thread topic and avoid the thread being locked yet again.

 

Unless that topic is open for discussion? Forum mods?

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Anytime you have a question about anything ...send me a pm and I guarantee...I won't be outraged.It is what we are here for. If you speak up the most that can happen is someone might disagree...that happens everyday.

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I don't know Dean. I believe the forum and helmet community has put up a blind faith.

 

On November 29th 2011, Jamie posted a very suspect 505th camo helmet on another forum. The helmet had reproduction chinstraps. Jamie tried very hard to convince the memebers the straps were original. Until enough memebers agreed they were reproduction, in that case he said he only paid $30 for the helmet (at a flea market) so it was no real lose. This could have very well been a first attempt to get aproval from the forum on one of his creations. That was 6 years ago, 6 years ago one of the top helmet dealer couldn't identify reproduction parts in a helmet.

 

Jamie has not heen a helmet collector for very long, judging by some of his first post. In that 6 years he's gained the trust of the forum and the helmet collecting community. And has shown dozens and extremely rare helmets that have seemly come out of thin air. Never been seen in the collecting community. Helmets 10 years ago experienced collectors would have told you "keep dreaming" this includes countless 82nd airborne helmets, 517th. 551st, 505, 508th, three ranger helmets, 502nd helmets, 501st helmets, 506th helmets... where were these helmets coming from? The few times I asked him where he was getting these helmets I got a similar generic response. "I got it from an old collection that I trust" including one of his 5th ranger helmets that was later put on ebay for a $5800 dollar Buy It Now. Which considering the rarity... is a good price.

 

But why are these rare helmets being sold for such decent prices? Or on ebay at all? Wouldn't rare high end painted helmets stay in a small private collectors circle as they have been for years?

 

The camo 509th on his Instagram was sold for 4k... considering the condition and rarity if original wouldn't you expect to see a higher price tag? They seem like quick sales fueled by a good reputation.

 

I've seen some of his helmets get questioned by other memebers followed by members here and other forums shut it down simply by saying they brought the helmet from Jamie. A highly knowledgeable and trusted helmet collector, and the "Jamie knows his stuff" "Jamie has the best collecting" and "I'd trust it coming from Jamie" comments would just pour in.

 

Sure he's posted some known original examples, but his flashy AB helmets found their way in the mix in high numbers.

 

And out of all these helmets shown by Jamie over the years that seem just too darn good to be true? He doesn't own any of them anymore.

 

That is a lot of helmets sold and now sitting in private collections and I hate to say it but I think some of us need to come to terms that the US painted helmets community could have very well been deceived by what could very well be the biggest faker to hit the community.

 

If you own a helmet from him, especially a camo one or a airborne marked one, I'd be very very suspect of it.

 

Unfortunately I do not see a good outcome coming from this.

 

J

 

Well said Justin

 

One thing comes to mind a good friend told me once...Real helmets Don't Leave Europe...the person was in Europe 3-5 times a year over 20 years and said in all that time he was able to see 2 related real airborne helmets.One was a 325 liner the other a 506th helmet shell still being used to hold feed for chickens and the helmet wasn't for sale.It was a tool being used.

 

I'm one who will say never say never but you have to give it a thought.

 

There are lots of collectors in Europe and some with really deep pockets.So if a helmet is found there logic tends to say the market is there or potential buyers are there who would beat themselves to death to buy or own it.No need to market it to the US side unless it was being returned to a family member.We have seen such example come back.

 

 

I also put it in another context.If a Civil War unit flag for a Confederate Regiment or Division from south Carolina or Tennesee was found and came up for sale where is it going to be worth the most?Here in the US in the espective states or would the seller market it to Fance??

 

Granted we saw a US flag sell for 6 figures that was D-Day attributed sell to a Dutch buyer but I think you see my thinking.Batllefield,Barn,Windmill finds will be kept in Europe for the most part.They were found there and with battlefields there the intrest is strong.

 

Again I'm just a collector.I have been looking at items for 48 years as long as I can remember.Spent countless hours with my dad(and on my own) going to shows,fleamarkets,auctions,junk shops,antique stores,thift shops and places your mom would warn you about and saw very few if any painted helmets let alone an M2 or camo M2.There was no internet to rely on or click and buy.You had to look.I saw handfuls of german para helmets.Still do and tons of fakes now.Granted the area we covered was a small area at times was less than 500 miles in any direction but I met enough collectors and sellers to have seen something like an M2 over the years even by accident.Wasnt til last December I found my 1st M2 and it had a standard liner in it but traced back to a man who was killed in training.There is a name in the liner but its not readable.To add to this I have only had one combat worn and painted M1 come out of my area here at an auction I attended.i was able to buy the uniform and unit history as well with a few shirts and trousers.He was a 3rd INF vet.One other came from a 17th Airborne vet who later served with the 82nd and his helmet had the 82nd on each side.These were worn as part of a bond tour doing jumps and glider demonstrations.This was from the vet first hand.

 

Again I'm not a person to say" never say never" but my personal experience has shown me different and to look at the big picture.

 

Yes there are real helmets out there and more to be found its just the pool has been soiled for a long time.

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That information is out there, I would suggest doing some personal research to avoid a turn in thread topic and avoid the thread being locked yet again.

 

Unless that topic is open for discussion? Forum mods?

Fire away...
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Burning Hazard

Just curious, other than selling helmets on a web site, does anyone know what the original poster does for a living?

 

From my conversations with him, he said he's a computer guy working from home and doing mostly web design (hence why he has his own web page).

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ArchangelDM

There is a well known and respected collector who most of us from the East coast know that once bought a repo inland paratrooper liner as a repo and sold it as a repo at the same show and then bought it back from the same guy a week later thinking it was real because of a new paint job and some dirt. The way Jamie swaps helmets around it's possible that something similar happened here. The thing is any number of things could have happened but we won't know until Jamie gets back. I am not trying to justify anything I am simply saying you can't figure this out without all the details.

Not a chance , your telling me someone who deals in helmets and has a helmet site does not know an M2 he originally owned that's been repainted , let alone the liner turning up In another helmet he is selling , cmon

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ArchangelDM

I don't know Dean. I believe the forum and helmet community has put up a blind faith.

 

On November 29th 2011, Jamie posted a very suspect 505th camo helmet on another forum. The helmet had reproduction chinstraps. Jamie tried very hard to convince the memebers the straps were original. Until enough memebers agreed they were reproduction, in that case he said he only paid $30 for the helmet (at a flea market) so it was no real lose. This could have very well been a first attempt to get aproval from the forum on one of his creations. That was 6 years ago, 6 years ago one of the top helmet dealer couldn't identify reproduction parts in a helmet.

 

Jamie has not heen a helmet collector for very long, judging by some of his first post. In that 6 years he's gained the trust of the forum and the helmet collecting community. And has shown dozens and extremely rare helmets that have seemly come out of thin air. Never been seen in the collecting community. Helmets 10 years ago experienced collectors would have told you "keep dreaming" this includes countless 82nd airborne helmets, 517th. 551st, 505, 508th, three ranger helmets, 502nd helmets, 501st helmets, 506th helmets... where were these helmets coming from? The few times I asked him where he was getting these helmets I got a similar generic response. "I got it from an old collection that I trust" including one of his 5th ranger helmets that was later put on ebay for a $5800 dollar Buy It Now. Which considering the rarity... is a good price.

 

But why are these rare helmets being sold for such decent prices? Or on ebay at all? Wouldn't rare high end painted helmets stay in a small private collectors circle as they have been for years?

 

The camo 509th on his Instagram was sold for 4k... considering the condition and rarity if original wouldn't you expect to see a higher price tag? They seem like quick sales fueled by a good reputation.

 

I've seen some of his helmets get questioned by other memebers followed by members here and other forums shut it down simply by saying they brought the helmet from Jamie. A highly knowledgeable and trusted helmet collector, and the "Jamie knows his stuff" "Jamie has the best collecting" and "I'd trust it coming from Jamie" comments would just pour in.

 

Sure he's posted some known original examples, but his flashy AB helmets found their way in the mix in high numbers.

 

And out of all these helmets shown by Jamie over the years that seem just too darn good to be true? He doesn't own any of them anymore.

 

That is a lot of helmets sold and now sitting in private collections and I hate to say it but I think some of us need to come to terms that the US painted helmets community could have very well been deceived by what could very well be the biggest faker to hit the community.

 

If you own a helmet from him, especially a camo one or a airborne marked one, I'd be very very suspect of it.

 

Unfortunately I do not see a good outcome coming from this.

 

J

 

Justin well put !

Now all of the people that have bought items from him should now Bring a case against him for fraud.

Apparently he is moving to London which is my Pond and believe me I will be asking the correct people to find out exactly where he is.

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