Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash

[tarbridge]

Your wishes already been granted..when it's pinned...it is there for perpetuity...

[manayunkman]

And where did the Shelton M2 come from?

[tarbridge]

And where did the Shelton M2 come from?

We have only had 33 pages of investigative work..there is still a need for patience...tick...tick...tick..

[ccmax]

Probably created from multiple parts and with an attractive story attached to it, but which cannot be proven beyond a certain point - as opposed to helmets with legit provenance.

[manayunkman]

Who (more than one person has had this helmet before Kibler) did the helmet come from before Kibler?

 

That's what you don't know and need to find out.

 

My gut feel is that the helmet originated in Europe and is a fake with 2 fake backstories.

 

I've never chased this helmet, had much interest in it or even seen it but over the past few years unsolicited information about it keeps coming to me.

 

All this information is here-say and won't hold up in court but it has given me a gut feel.

 

I think that the answer of who had it b4 Kibler will be found in Pa.

 

My hope is that I'm wrong and I could very well be after all I have no facts.

 

But since this new development with Jamie I find it facinating and interesting.

 

I realize that there are many who have or will come out on the short end of this financially and that's too bad.

 

I can relate to you because I grew up during a time in the hobby when any information was hard to get and many people took advantage of the 12 year old who would find things on his newspaper route.

 

I bought many fakes when I was younger and tried several times to quit because of it.

 

So when something like this comes up I'm interested in seeing what type of resolution, if any, we will see and who is responsible.

 

Here is the type of thing collectors are up against.

 

Back in the early 90's when the MAX was in Baltimore I would go and sell.

 

I went out to dinner one night with some of my buyers to a buffet.

 

In the buffet line were 2 German dagger dealers talking about a fake Navy dagger with diamonds that they had manufactured and how they got 10,000 for one.

 

I did and said nothing but to a couple of people.

 

It is now the responsibility of those who lost out here to do something about it besides doing nothing, changing how you collect or quit.

 

There was a large law suite brought against Ed Winn in Pa. who had filled one guys collection with fakes.

 

Winn lost so it can be done.

[ArchangelDM]

Who (more than one person has had this helmet before Kibler) did the helmet come from before Kibler?

 

That's what you don't know and need to find out.

 

My gut feel is that the helmet originated in Europe and is a fake with 2 fake backstories.

 

I've never chased this helmet, had much interest in it or even seen it but over the past few years unsolicited information about it keeps coming to me.

 

All this information is here-say and won't hold up in court but it has given me a gut feel.

 

I think that the answer of who had it b4 Kibler will be found in Pa.

 

My hope is that I'm wrong and I could very well be after all I have no facts.

 

But since this new development with Jamie I find it facinating and interesting.

 

I realize that there are many who have or will come out on the short end of this financially and that's too bad.

 

I can relate to you because I grew up during a time in the hobby when any information was hard to get and many people took advantage of the 12 year old who would find things on his newspaper route.

 

I bought many fakes when I was younger and tried several times to quit because of it.

 

So when something like this comes up I'm interested in seeing what type of resolution, if any, we will see and who is responsible.

 

Here is the type of thing collectors are up against.

 

Back in the early 90's when the MAX was in Baltimore I would go and sell.

 

I went out to dinner one night with some of my buyers to a buffet.

 

In the buffet line were 2 German dagger dealers talking about a fake Navy dagger with diamonds that they had manufactured and how they got 10,000 for one.

 

I did and said nothing but to a couple of people.

 

It is now the responsibility of those who lost out here to do something about it besides doing nothing, changing how you collect or quit.

 

There was a large law suite brought against Ed Winn in Pa. who had filled one guys collection with fakes.

 

Winn lost so it can be done.

 

Amazing input ,

Thanks

D.C

[Ronny67]

I would think it's on the folks who accepted Jamie into the most protected levels of collecting knowledge to show us the deserve the reputations they so enjoy. They run a huge amount of the online collecting community.

 

They were fooled like the people who paid him money; only after years of telling people they should listen to their opinions- many people did.

 

But this was manufactured for over 6 years, and is still somehow unresolved as Jkash23686's account remains un-banned after all this proof.

 

I made a mistake and I am owning it. Time others did something similar. Meanwhile, R67 is logging off for good. Take care USMF.

[Bugme]

I would think it's on the folks who accepted Jamie into the most protected levels of collecting knowledge to show us the deserve the reputations they so enjoy. They run a huge amount of the online collecting community.

 

They were fooled like the people who paid him money; only after years of telling people they should listen to their opinions- many people did.

 

But this was manufactured for over 6 years, and is still somehow unresolved as Jkash23686's account remains un-banned after all this proof.

 

I made a mistake and I am owning it. Time others did something similar. Meanwhile, R67 is logging off for good. Take care USMF.

Seriously Ronny67? His account remains un-banned simply because ALL OF YOU GUYS are calling for him to speak and give an explanation. Not too easy for him to do that if we ban him, is it? We have already blocked his selling privileges so, the only thing Jamie can do right now is post an explanation. You sent me a PM imploring me to keep this thread open. Then you posted the other day that this thread needed to be closed. We have left it open in the interest of transparency, we've tried to satisfy everyone. Now you are going to leave because we did what you asked??????? I honestly think there is nothing that makes anyone, including you, happy!

[tarbridge]

Seriously Ronny67? His account remains un-banned simply because ALL OF YOU GUYS are calling for him to speak and give an explanation. Not too easy for him to do that if we ban him, is it? We have already blocked his selling privileges so, the only thing Jamie can do right now is post an explanation. You sent me a PM imploring me to keep this thread open. Then you posted the other day that this thread needed to be closed. We have left it open in the interest of transparency, we've tried to satisfy everyone. Now you are going to leave because we did what you asked??????? I honestly think there is nothing that makes anyone, including you, happy!

Exactly...we have done all that has been asked.

[USMC-RECON0321]

I keep seeing people calling out the so called "Helmet Gurus" on this thread? I'm not sure who you are giving that title to or not, but just because someone you consider to be a "Helmet Guru" politely comments on someones thread of a new find with just a few small pictures, with "Nice find", or "great addition to your collection" etc... Doesn't mean they are giving it their stamp of approval. Once someone decides they are considering buying an item, that's a whole other situation, that would require a hands on inspection, return policy and researching the totality of the circumstances to make an educated and informed decision.

 

Troy

[Ronnie]

Come on Andy you are an important part of this forum. You are needed and you need to be around when and if jkash responds.

Thanks.

Ronnie

[Bugme]

I keep seeing people calling out the so called "Helmet Gurus" on this thread? I'm not sure who you are giving that title to or not, but just because someone you consider to be a "Helmet Guru" politely comments on someones thread of a new find with just a few small pictures, with "Nice find", or "great addition to your collection" etc... Doesn't mean they are giving it their stamp of approval. Once someone decides they are considering buying an item, that's a whole other situation, that would require a hands on inspection, return policy and researching the totality of the circumstances to make an educated and informed decision.

 

Troy

 

Troy, thank you for speaking up. I am sure that I am not the only who has grown weary of all the snarky remarks directed at some "unkown guru's". It's like: "be careful everyone because you may get tagged as a guru." Geeeeesh!

[ccmax]

Gurus are the people whose advice cause beginning collectors end up buying fakes.

[Bugme]

Gurus are the people whose advice cause beginning collectors end up buying fakes.

Again, we hear that word but, who are they? I for one have never encouraged someone to "buy" a helmet. As a matter of fact, there is a large group, who you also know of Cesar, that are very educated in helmets who I have never seen encourage someone to buy a helmet. As a further matter of fact most of those "encouraging" others to buy a helmet, are usually the sellers themselves. What I do see, is collectors stating that someone is a good guy based on what they felt was a good experience. We've all had good experiences with sellers only to find out later that others haven't. That doesn't mean they were this stupid "guru" word that folks keep using. The blame rests squarely on the collecting community as a whole and NOT on a few scape goats. So, let's stop this witch hunt.

[ccmax]

Scott, it did happen seriously in the German helmet collecting community a few years ago. It is not a witch hunt, but a fact of any collecting field. Although there is the occasional lone wolf, there are also cases of concocted stories involving more than one single person which are used to sell bogus helmets.

[Blacksmith]

I think we're overly locked in on a single word, versus the definition itself. There are a bunch of words that mean the same as "guru", but I think the basic concept is someone whose opinion is respected. All of this has been hashed in this topic, multiple times, but to act like the phenomenon doesn't exist is insulting. You can attribute it to whatever you want, high post counts, has authored a book, seen to trade in high-end items, or someone you get scolded for questioning. Anyone implying that all opinions are weighed equally are kidding themselves, or trying to kid others. Now, that said, the only person responsible for spending your money is you. Opinions are fine, but in the end, you are the one getting your wallet out. Somebody posting a response to your "is it real?" topic is not going to refund your money if you get burnt. So yes, generally-accepted so-called "gurus" exist; and no, they are not responsible for the purchases you make.

[ccmax]

I do believe that there are true experts in the several collecting fields. Skeptcism is however a healthy mental response when a piece said to be outstading doesn't stay long enough on someone's shelf to gather dust

.

[Bugme]

Scott, it did happen seriously in the German helmet collecting community a few years ago. It is not a witch hunt, but a fact of any collecting field. Although there is the occasional lone wolf, there are also cases of concocted stories involving more than one single person which are used to sell bogus helmets.

True, and the very reason I jumped ship on TR helmets years ago. The difference is that here we have kept the discussion open, we have let everyone say their piece no matter how far out there they went and we have extended abundant grace here to those who pushed the limit of cordial posting.

 

The TR folks mostly circled their wagons around the Champagne Rune Goons for decades and shut down all descending opinion or observations. We here are saying: have at it, let's get this cleared up, let's learn from this, let's become better but, if folks are going to keep going after each other, blaming each other or picking up their toys and running home in a snit after spewing accusations as R67 did, then no one will prosper.

[Forum Manager]

I would think it's on the folks who accepted Jamie into the most protected levels of collecting knowledge to show us the deserve the reputations they so enjoy. They run a huge amount of the online collecting community.

 

They were fooled like the people who paid him money; only after years of telling people they should listen to their opinions- many people did.

 

But this was manufactured for over 6 years, and is still somehow unresolved as Jkash23686's account remains un-banned after all this proof.

 

I made a mistake and I am owning it. Time others did something similar. Meanwhile, R67 is logging off for good. Take care USMF.

 

Are you serious? The Mods & Admins have bent over backwards to keep this thread on line and to help as many people as they can, esp you.Would you have rather us just delete this and hide this post so that no one understands what has happened? If we did that then we would have been accused of "protecting" someone who is being accused of being a faker.

This is another prime example where the Mods and the Admin are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Ronny67]

I am returning to post an unexpected turn of events:

 

Jkash sent me a full refund as of 1 hour ago.

 

In the spirit of full transparency I wanted to post this here.

 

I am shocked in all honesty. Especially after a week of silence.

 

I really hope he is sending money to everyone he burned.

 

-R67 out.

[pelseth]

Well that is good news. I know getting your money back is a consolation prize as you still don't have the helmet (which was worth more to you than the money), but I'm glad.

[tarbridge]

I am returning to post an unexpected turn of events:

 

Jkash sent me a full refund as of 1 hour ago.

 

In the spirit of full transparency I wanted to post this here.

 

I am shocked in all honesty. Especially after a week of silence.

 

I really hope he is sending money to everyone he burned.

 

-R67 out.

The way this thread has transpired I won't believe anything without proof.I hope for all involved that this is truthful.

[pelseth]

I know R67 and find it much easier to believe that he got his refund than that he would make this claim falsely. What kind of proof would you like to see?

[tarbridge]

I know R67 and find it much easier to believe that he got his refund than that he would make this claim falsely. What kind of proof would you like to see?

The same transparency and proof the membership has asked for since the beginning of this thread. I never said anybody made a false claim.I said for all involved I hope it is truthful.

[pelseth]

I didn't mean the question rhetorically. If (IF) I ever get a refund from jkash I'd like to know what evidence to provide to my fellow forum members.

 

Written sincerely not sarcastically. It is important that the story be documented as much as is possible.