Fake: M2 of Lt. Joseph Shelton 505th PIR - jkash

[Tom Kibler]

I'd like to apologize to Erik Dorr and Tom Kibler, I should have handled my question about proof privately rather than on the thread.

 

Thank you - No worries.

 

We may never know the why. Any "Why" question imposes judgment - and people are often reluctant to answer that.

 

I can say, without doubt, that the Shelton M2 is/was authentic. I would not have bought it otherwise. Jamie has only collected helmets for about 6 years, basing much of his knowledge on the high-dollar helmets he purchased. I never met him, wouldn't know him if we bumped into each other and I will not accuse him. He and I did NOT see eye to eye on helmets, though. More than once I called him out privately (as was mentioned on his 551st), and he said I was a novice with no experience ... and other minor name calling. He, in turn, just called my helmets fake. I suppose tit for tat?? I've got no axe to grind, nor do I have the time to do it. We simply disagree.

 

All we have in this hobby, is our reputations, based on interpersonal experiences, posting and dealings. All of us can come up with theories - and all are conjecture until the "Why" is learned.

 

Was it greed? Debt? Money needed for medical reasons? Family of the vet concerns??? We simply just don't know.

 

What I think is safe to say we know, is that the original, ID'd Shelton D-bail shell was recently painted/camouflaged. The named "SHELTON" Westinghouse jump liner was pulled from the helmet and placed in a 501st fixed-bail helmet and replaced with a heavily worn Inland jump liner. All of this was done while in the possession of Jamie, as evidenced by his posting of the original Shelton helmet and the posting for sale of the camo on eBay and then again on his site.

 

Ultimately, the original, named D-bail was destroyed and parted out to bring a higher dollar value for the two helmets, than the one, named D-bail.

 

Anyway you look at it, the entire situation is sad and undermines the reason most of us collect, to value and preserve the history we hold so dear.

[Hambone]

Hi all,

 

I agree with this huge disconnect. Who in their right mind ( especially a dealer ) would alter a great historical helmet to make it worthless unless he already knew it was fake to begin with. These seems to be the most logical conclusion to me. Was this a created fake helmet and the coincidental vet provenance that gave it too much attention? The person further "enhanced" it because he knew it was already fake to begin with. The fake camo and liner switching was an effort to cover up the attention it was given with the vet provenance?

Perhaps this is my wishful thinking in an effort to not believe that someone would destroy something so great.

 

FWIW, as a German helmet collector, particularly "camos" and helmets with provenance, and as a WW2 helmet collector in general, of 30+ years, including M1s, my opinion at the present time agrees with the foregoing, and I'll add the following opinions:

 

"Holy Grail" lids like the Shelton M2, don't bounce around from collector to collector. This would be the center piece of an M1 collection. It would be of mine. I would also fly out to meet with Col. Shelton and his family get pictures with the helmet, preserve his statements about it, etc., to preserve the helmet and history. It would likely be sold by my heirs, or before I died to pay medical expenses or my child's college.

 

So, we've got Shelton M2 selling four times, then it is overpainted in gas paint "camo" and a new liner added to completely erase its prior history and transform it into something of LESS value (IMHO), which humpjob transmogrification would have succeeded without sharp eyed collectors and internets history. IMHO, there is a "bottom" to this that we have not dug down to, but it wouldn't be difficult, particularly if it involved the threat of a felony conviction and some statements taken under oath. I think many people believe that fraud in a hobby is not really fraud. It is.

 

We are all lucky to have a USMF and the handling of this has been proper and dignified IMHO. Thank you. Digging to get to the bottom, or an area close, is not going to be rainbows, ponies, and Skittles, but it's necessary to maintain the integrity of the hobby.

[tarbridge]

If the "veteran's son" didn't show up puffing the now altered helmet, your question would strike me as insane and irrelevant to the discussion. At this point, I simply don't know how it should have been handled. I am glad that the thread is unlocked so that we can get to the bottom of this.

 

How this forum reacts to this specific incident is going to have a big effect on this hobby as it moves forward, and how this forum is viewed in the future. The rust and grime and paint needs to be scrubbed off of these, and we need to get to bare metal. Anything less is wrong.

The forum is a working platform for like-minded individuals who collect...research...commerce or just enjoy history.On occasion a sad and disappointing discovery arises and if not for the forum providing the venue, the discovery could be hidden for a much longer time.That would cause many more victims.

 

We have allowed the thread to run now 9 pages that includes some unpleasant behavior and of course, the wealth of information...knowledge and insight to a possible fraudulent activity uncovered.

Being part of this forum I believe we do a stellar job, even if he is contrary to how it feels at time.I know some members of the forum are frustrated with our actions thinking we dont "get it".We "get it"...we have to remain neutral and give everyone the opportunity to interject their opinions...theories or hopefully solid insight.

This thread has been heated and tumultuous at best...it has been closed and re-opened four times just to calm things down. There is only one hidden post in this 9 pages...the op requested it for the time being.

This activity infects the medal collecting field also which we try to spread the word and warnings, collectors have to be vigilant in our fields of expertise. The forum itself in my estimation is one of the strongest weapons against the fraudulent actors that abide our community I can remember thread after thread of bogus and reproduction items on websites and eBay that our own forum sleuths have exposed.We thank you all for your efforts to keep our fellow collectors from getting scammed.

 

So, please continue the discussion and keep to the points. Have a good day on the USMF.

As always...feel free to pm me anytime with concerns and questions.

[nirvana]

I'd like to throw in my personal opinion on this matter, just trying to piece all the events.

 

Right now this is what we do know:

 

- Shelton's helmet was not a fake based from two sources on the forum (Gettysburg Museum and Tom Kibler).

 

This first event is not correct, in my opinion, as something prior may have occurred. At least one person appears to have examined it whilst it was in the museum. This person concluded that it may have had chin straps added to it. If the museum didn't know this before they had it examined, that means it had been concealed from them. There is only one reason to add chinstrap a stripped shell postwar, and that is to increase its value.

 

If this is true, it means that this helmet was materially altered at least once before it even entered into this system. It's possible, one could argue, that the helmet had new chin straps added during the war when it was repaired, but judging from the shell wear, that seems strange. That previous possible alteration legitimately raises questions as to what else has been done to this helmet in the past in an effort to increase its value.

[Hambone]

My opinions: I didn't see the added theories on the "why" involving what implies a claim of "stolen" property. That's an interesting angle. If I was the claimant under a theory of stolen property I'd be looking at legal action as a very valuable helmet has been destroyed to conceal it or sell it for more money. Either way, shame shame.

[Hambone]

The forum is a working platform for like-minded individuals who collect...research...commerce or just enjoy history.On occasion a sad and disappointing discovery arises and if not for the forum providing the venue, the discovery could be hidden for a much longer time.That would cause many more victims.

 

.........The forum itself in my estimation is one of the strongest weapons against the fraudulent actors that abide our community I can remember thread after thread of bogus and reproduction items on websites and eBay that our own forum sleuths have exposed.We thank you all for your efforts to keep our fellow collectors from getting scammed.

 

So, please continue the discussion and keep to the points. Have a good day on the USMF.

As always...feel free to pm me anytime with concerns and questions.

 

We agree with this philosophy at K98k Forum and certainly appreciate it here. Thank you. The future of our hobby is tied to its integrity.

[BagmanL6]

There is a huge disconnect here.

 

Who takes a $10,000 helmet with "provenance" and turns it into a piece of crap?

 

That's not what fakers do.

 

It's not April 1st so this isn't a joke or is it?

 

I'll ask again, who in their right mind uses a $10,000 helmet to make a fake?

 

No one in their right mind no matter how corrupt they are or seem to be.

Good afternoon. I certainly don't disagree with this logic or thought process but do have a question/point. Isn't what has happened here the "enhancement" of two separate helmets since the liner and shell were separated? If I understand what happened correctly would that value be greater than the value of the helmet originally posted? I'm just asking a question for knowledge. Not arguing your point. Thanks.

[David D]

I have emailed privately with Jamie for years. Everytime he would leave for vacation, he would have his email automatically respond to any incoming correspondence with the an email of the following format, (copied and pasted from one of our past conversations):

 

I will be out of the office and unavailable from the 26th - 2nd of July,

 

Thanks

 

Currently, his email is not auto-replying with an out of office notice, even though he is on a month long trip. The above email was received when he traveled to London, which he posted photos of on his facebook. So he really went to London. But Africa does not get the same treatment? Guys, this is very suspicious.

 

I am only posting facts here. Not speculation.

I'm really suprised everyone seemed to brush right over this post. As this seems to basically prove what me and some other members have been thinking. He isn't in Africa. I really don't see any reason to vacation in Africa ( no offense but from what I know Africa really isn't prime vacation land) he is probably just waiting until the "storm calms"

[Ronny67]

I'm really suprised everyone seemed to brush right over this post. As this seems to basically prove what me and some other members have been thinking. He isn't in Africa. I really don't see any reason to vacation in Africa ( no offense but from what I know Africa really isn't prime vacation land) he is probably just waiting until the "storm calms"

 

David,

 

Africa is beautiful and awe inspiringly amazing.

 

JKash has made a FB post about not being available until the end of August.

 

If folks with FB accounts could take screen shots of what he exactly said, and post here, we can pin him with facts not just speculation.

[David D]

Again I've really just seen it on the news so I guess I was a little biased so I apologize on that part.

[tarbridge]

I don't think at this point the geographics are a concern but the lack of response speaks volumes.But time will expose the truth.Patience.

[Ronny67]

Again I've really just seen it on the news so I guess I was a little biased so I apologize on that part.

 

I agree

[Ben@HI]

He's not vacationing in Africa he's working with some game preserve thing over there as a volunteer. He has been planning this for a couple of months and everyone that knows him knew this trip was coming well in advance. Personally I find the timing of this "storm" suspect as it seems everyone is trying to sling mud while the person isn't around the explain or defend himself. How about just waiting till he gets back and hearing him out before making any more speculations and accusations.

[doyler]

 

David,

 

Africa is beautiful and awe inspiringly amazing.

 

JKash has made a FB post about not being available until the end of August.

 

If folks with FB accounts could take screen shots of what he exactly said, and post here, we can pin him with facts not just speculation.

 

Egypt and Israel are beautiful as well but I know I wouldn't go there on vacation.There are spots in the world that are great and dangerous.I wouldn't take an unpaid vaction to Iraq either... Each to his own.and there are dangerous places in America.Even locally.Just saying I'm not of the mind set to push my luck going to a 3rd World nation and pay to be put in a situation that could get ugly or contract something drain cleaner wont cure.I have had friend who were in Rhodesiaan/Zimbabwe as well.Beautiful pace but not on my bucket list to visit.I know its off topic but a little humor here to pass the time as 68 users are here and there seems to be less going on about other topics

 

.Maybe we can go to North Korea with Rodman in the near future.Now theres a vacation spot.

[doyler]

He's not vacationing in Africa he's working with some game preserve thing over there as a volunteer. He has been planning this for a couple of months and everyone that knows him knew this trip was coming well in advance. Personally I find the timing of this "storm" suspect as it seems everyone is trying to sling mud while the person isn't around the explain or defend himself. How about just waiting till he gets back and hearing him out before making any more speculations and accusations.

 

Ben

 

I agree to a point but again he was on site and logged in on August 5th at 4am...If logging in why not reply or state something to put down the fire instead of fan the flames??just odd and if you are logging in I'm sure there is also times to not log in and see the ongoing drama fest develop.

[MasonK]

 

Ben

 

I agree to a point but again he was on site and logged in on August 5th at 4am...If logging in why not reply or state something to put down the fire instead of fan the flames??just odd and if you are logging in I'm sure there is also times to not log in and see the ongoing drama fest develop.

The camo version of the helmet wasn't posted by Robin until August 6th, a day after his last login.

[Pete-o MSU]

I think this is a good caution example for all collectors young and old. Just because someone owns a few rare items does not make them an expert. I primarily collect medals and have seen people come in and spend lots of money on rare items and all of a sudden they have "expertise." Even though in reality they have no real knowledge on the subject. The forum atmosphere sometimes tends to prop these people up. But, we all need to remember the good the forum provides also. I have accumulated more knowledge by being active on this forum than I would have otherwise. If you want advice on an item from me ask. If I don't know I will tell you that I don't know, and try to put you in contact with someone who does. Anyone who claims to know everything...is lying to you. Be skeptical and question everything. no shame in asking questions, some members just need to learn a little tact when doing so.

 

Thanks to the forum and moderators for letting this thread run.

 

Pete

[manayunkman]

Not for greed but on purpose.

 

Why? We don't know yet.

[Pete-o MSU]

He's not vacationing in Africa he's working with some game preserve thing over there as a volunteer. He has been planning this for a couple of months and everyone that knows him knew this trip was coming well in advance. Personally I find the timing of this "storm" suspect as it seems everyone is trying to sling mud while the person isn't around the explain or defend himself. How about just waiting till he gets back and hearing him out before making any more speculations and accusations.

What could he say to justify his action? I've heard multiple people bring this up. I'm curious from anyone, not picking on you Ben. What could he say to satisfy people?

[GeneralCheese]

 

Thank you - No worries.

 

We may never know the why. Any "Why" question imposes judgment - and people are often reluctant to answer that.

 

I can say, without doubt, that the Shelton M2 is/was authentic. I would not have bought it otherwise. Jamie has only collected helmets for about 6 years, basing much of his knowledge on the high-dollar helmets he purchased. I never met him, wouldn't know him if we bumped into each other and I will not accuse him. He and I did NOT see eye to eye on helmets, though. More than once I called him out privately (as was mentioned on his 551st), and he said I was a novice with no experience ... and other minor name calling. He, in turn, just called my helmets fake. I suppose tit for tat?? I've got no axe to grind, nor do I have the time to do it. We simply disagree.

 

All we have in this hobby, is our reputations, based on interpersonal experiences, posting and dealings. All of us can come up with theories - and all are conjecture until the "Why" is learned.

 

Was it greed? Debt? Money needed for medical reasons? Family of the vet concerns??? We simply just don't know.

 

What I think is safe to say we know, is that the original, ID'd Shelton D-bail shell was recently painted/camouflaged. The named "SHELTON" Westinghouse jump liner was pulled from the helmet and placed in a 501st fixed-bail helmet and replaced with a heavily worn Inland jump liner. All of this was done while in the possession of Jamie, as evidenced by his posting of the original Shelton helmet and the posting for sale of the camo on eBay and then again on his site.

 

Ultimately, the original, named D-bail was destroyed and parted out to bring a higher dollar value for the two helmets, than the one, named D-bail.

 

Anyway you look at it, the entire situation is sad and undermines the reason most of us collect, to value and preserve the history we hold so dear.

Tom, thank you.

 

I do however have some questions for you, and in no way do I mean to call in to question your expertise, but this is important to trying to figure this all out. When you bought the helmet, was it sourced from the woodwork or not? Also, what did you pay for it, or more generally did the seller know what they had?

 

My personal theory is that unless a helmet comes from non-collector, misidentified and for a steal of a price, there is always the chance someone is trying to sell a fake.

[manayunkman]

Mr. Kibler got the helmet from an old collector in PA.

 

From what I remember Mr. Kibler did the research that found the family and was going to get some photos or something like that.

 

At the time we talked about it he was looking up several airborne pieces I had with names as I was impressed with his ability to track information down.

 

Coincidence that this posted the same time as Cheese.

[doyler]

I think this is a good caution example for all collectors young and old. Just because someone owns a few rare items does not make them an expert. I primarily collect medals and have seen people come in and spend lots of money on rare items and all of a sudden they have "expertise." Even though in reality they have no real knowledge on the subject. The forum atmosphere sometimes tends to prop these people up. But, we all need to remember the good the forum provides also. I have accumulated more knowledge by being active on this forum than I would have otherwise. If you want advice on an item from me ask. If I don't know I will tell you that I don't know, and try to put you in contact with someone who does. Anyone who claims to know everything...is lying to you. Be skeptical and question everything. no shame in asking questions, some members just need to learn a little tact when doing so.

 

Thanks to the forum and moderators for letting this thread run.

 

Pete

++1

 

or write a book.People are human.Mistakes are made.Some mistakes are corrected.Some aren't mistakes but are done to further ones image etc.Each situation has to be looked at and then evaluated or acted upon.

 

I'm no expert and never will be.Im just a collector.I have good and bad and have things I know are bad but never would sell or pass off as correct.They are fillers for me.There is an old saying that comes from the german side of collecting.Theres good and good enough.For example I have never had a real SS smock and probably wont unless one comes out of a moldy footlocker in a local basement.I do have one from Fury now and its fantastic.I sent a pic toma buddy and he thought it was real.I told him its from the movie.Its unworn and its"good enough" for me.Its aklso special because of it being part of the movie costume/props used.

 

What sets the "good and good enough" issue apart is how one sells it or advertise it in the end.If money is the important factor then the "good enough" gets blessed as real.

[doyler]

Not for greed but on purpose.

 

Why? We don't know yet.

 

Greed is a purpose in my thinking

[GeneralCheese]

Mr. Kibler got the helmet from an old collector in PA.

 

From what I remember Mr. Kibler did the research that found the family.

 

At the time we talked about it he was looking up several airborne pieces I had with names as I was impressed with his ability to track information down.

Would it be possible by using the same information he used to track Shelton's family down for a faker to make a helmet with a convincing history? We've seen that here before with fake laundry numbers and names.

[cutiger83]

 

I'm sure there is also times to not log in and see the ongoing drama fest develop.

 

Very true. If you look at the bottom of this thread, there are 4 "google search" people reading this thread. While it could be anyone, it could also be a member who doesn't log in.