pelseth Posted August 8, 2017 Share #151 Posted August 8, 2017 Let's face it we are all looking for these rare helmets yet Jamie managed to find them on a regular basis. Casually coming across M2's at will. If as it would appear, that the Shelton helmet is a fake then in all honesty his other helmets are also likely to be fake, or at very least the markings on them. Others have already expressed doubt over some of his helmets. I find it hard to believe that there is a reasonable explanation to all this. The silent majority have allowed this to happen. Forgive me, I am relatively new to M1 collecting and can claim no expertise compared to many here, but at least some of his helmets came from others, so seem to me to be unlikely to be faked by him. For instance this one: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/265405-39th-id-aaao-fixed-bail-found-in-normandy/ Maybe an overreaction to assume that everything he has sold is fake, on the basis of this one? Maybe I'm not paranoid enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted August 8, 2017 Share #152 Posted August 8, 2017 This very thing occurred to me, too, but... Wasn't the Shelton M2 owned by at lest a couple of other members before the OP? Are you suggesting it might be an "older" job recently discovered? And then find out why the westinghouse liner found its way in 501st helmet set also for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 8, 2017 Share #153 Posted August 8, 2017 It looks like the Shelton westinghouse liner still had the sweatband in it with Sheltons name in he leather when it was sold with the 501st helmet...also it had a 2cnd Lt yellow bar on front with the 501st wondering if it originally had the butter bar or was addd...the now owner of the 501st at least has Sheltons liner whoever that might be....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted August 8, 2017 Share #154 Posted August 8, 2017 From what I'm reading,and please correct me if I'm wrong,it appears that the Westinghouse liner is untouched,and the shell has been altered.Could this mean that the liner is authentic but the shell was a later addition?It just seems crazy to me that someone would "throw away" all that provenance and "repurpose" the pieces individually,unless it was an effort to cover some tracks(on the shell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKEsaysGO44 Posted August 8, 2017 Share #155 Posted August 8, 2017 The 39th IR, 9th ID M1 linked above was originally mine and was sourced from a collector in France. It is 100% original and not one of the creations. Just a little background as I know everyone is on high alert.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 8, 2017 Share #156 Posted August 8, 2017 Patchcollector...as i understand it other collectors have owned the Shelton M2 then it was at the museum that eventually traded it to jamie so i dont think the shell was a creation?....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-o MSU Posted August 8, 2017 Share #157 Posted August 8, 2017 Earlier in this thread member Tom Kibler said he owned the helmet, maybe he can elaborate more on where it came from? Or maybe he remembers what color the lt bar was on the liner? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David D Posted August 8, 2017 Share #158 Posted August 8, 2017 Let's face it we are all looking for these rare helmets yet Jamie managed to find them on a regular basis. Casually coming across M2's at will. If as it would appear, that the Shelton helmet is a fake then in all honesty his other helmets are also likely to be fake, or at very least the markings on them. Others have already expressed doubt over some of his helmets. I find it hard to believe that there is a reasonable explanation to all this. The silent majority have allowed this to happen. I couldn't have said this better. It seems as if you spoke out against this member before this whole thing happened you would get attacked by his little band wagon. So honestly it was pointless to do so because no one would believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gitana Posted August 8, 2017 Share #159 Posted August 8, 2017 There is something to that. Generally speaking, whenever someone becomes an 'Authority' no one questions anything he posts. Very few people have any experience with rare and expensive items such as this helmet, so the Authority is in a position to make high-quality changes that no one would, or could, question. Then the fakes (could) become real.No one's items should be above scrutiny. GOOD JOB to those who brought this up and posted evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxembourg Posted August 8, 2017 Share #160 Posted August 8, 2017 Why did the mods or admins delete the topic of ArchangelDM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted August 8, 2017 Share #161 Posted August 8, 2017 Why did the mods or admins delete the topic of ArchangelDM?Per member request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxembourg Posted August 8, 2017 Share #162 Posted August 8, 2017 Per member request Alright, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted August 8, 2017 Share #163 Posted August 8, 2017 There is something to that. Generally speaking, whenever someone becomes an 'Authority' no one questions anything he posts. Very few people have any experience with rare and expensive items such as this helmet, so the Authority is in a position to make high-quality changes that no one would, or could, question. Then the fakes (could) become real. No one's items should be above scrutiny. GOOD JOB to those who brought this up and posted evidence. I rarely ever get on the helmet forum and know nothing of high end helmets.There definitely seems to be some questions to be addressed and a search for answers.I will say going back over some of these threads about the same pieces..some of same folks praised these and now bash them.That goes to show you can change your opinion for whatever the reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted August 8, 2017 Share #164 Posted August 8, 2017 Why did the mods or admins delete the topic of ArchangelDM? I requested it as to give Jamie time to respond to this helmet thread before asking questions on other helmets. I want to give it a fair trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63 RECON Posted August 8, 2017 Share #165 Posted August 8, 2017 The son of the veteran whom the original posted helmet allegedly belonged to has been rather quiet since these new revelations came to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron bender Posted August 8, 2017 Share #166 Posted August 8, 2017 I'm assuming most here have seen the travesty of the sham-pain ruin helmets. Forgery has the potential to run deep. Whoever it was who initially called this helmet out did an outstanding job, and texasbucfan for locating the "original" liner. Opinions are exactly that, but I believe this helmet has been fakedx2. I believe seller is covering tracks of a bad helmet to begin with, and it's really unusual the son of the vet hasn't returned. Again, opinions, and I want to find out this is all on the up and up, but for now it's not looking good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doinworkinvans Posted August 8, 2017 Share #167 Posted August 8, 2017 Until we hear from Jkash its all just theory and tin foil hat mentality.On the other hand, the detective work that is done here on this thread (and on the forum itself) is why I love this place. I know this is a tough time, esp for those who have helmets that are in questions. But to look on the lighter side of things, its been good work by all (minus the bashing). The truth always wins in the end, and I for one look forward to reading this thread more even though I have zero interest in helmets. Keep up the good detective work and fighting for the hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1966ww2collector Posted August 8, 2017 Share #168 Posted August 8, 2017 I rarely ever get on the helmet forum and know nothing of high end helmets.There definitely seems to be some questions to be addressed and a search for answers.I will say going back over some of these threads about the same pieces..some of same folks praised these and now bash them.That goes to show you can change your opinion for whatever the reason... Respectfully, I think it's more than just "whatever reason". I think we all feel somewhat duped. We see concrete evidence of a faked camo helmet and a liner that has been moved from one high-end helmet to another either knowingly or unknowingly by a forum member held in high regard. I think this teaches us that we can't just blindly trust reputation and I think that is a good takeaway. I also think there are collectors on this forum staring at centerpiece helmets wondering if they have lost a bunch of money. I have one that originated from DZ that I have refused to sell because of my suspicions. I talked a forum member out of buying it from me because I didn't feel good about it. He had seen it in a picture of my collection and wanted to buy it. Depending on how this shakes out, I may share it later for inspection. I had it in the hands of some knowledgeable collectors at SOS and no-one liked it. I do believe that DZ has bought and sold real helmets. I don't think that these few taint all of the others. Eventually, I think owners of helmets that might be suspect should try and establish some chain of ownership prior to DZ. That might confirm or clear up suspicion. I'm giving DZ the benefit of the doubt until we hear something. Hopefully we will. One thing is for sure, someone has "faked" us out. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Detective Posted August 8, 2017 Share #169 Posted August 8, 2017 I'm reading the Shelton helmet had "provenance" can someone in the know tell us what that provenance is? The sad fact is there are many fake helmets aging in peoples collections today as originals, that's why it is so important for forums like this to exist ..great work guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kibler Posted August 8, 2017 Share #170 Posted August 8, 2017 Earlier in this thread member Tom Kibler said he owned the helmet, maybe he can elaborate more on where it came from? Or maybe he remembers what color the lt bar was on the liner? Pete So, I've been following this thread, as has 50% of the forum (it appears). In early 2015 (January??) I purchased a large collection, to include Cpl. Jay Barr's reinforced D-Day jump set, Jack Agnew's (YES - The Filthy 13) duty belt, holster, canteen and wire cutters and a couple of helmets, to include the one that started this thread. My focus was to keep the Jay Barr set (period). I sold the Shelton helmet and other items to Erik Dorr to offset my investment in the Barr M42 set. ** AS A SIDE NOTE: Erik Dorr has one of the BEST collections I've ever seen in 40+ years of collecting! He backs up his items/artifacts with killer vetted provenance. Let's put to bed any problems there - his stuff (to include the entire Maj. Richard D. Winters Collection) - is nothing less than remarkable. ** I sold the helmet (and other items) to Erik, as the helmet was originally posted by Jamie. It is 1000% right, unmessed with and real. What has been done to it is nothing short of utter and gross disrespect for the history linked to the helmet. I will not accuse anyone - as though the information appears damning, I'd want ALL of the facts first. As to "Why", it seems the almighty dollar was the reason. I cannot remember the details of the Lt. bar on the liner or not. I never photographed the helmet, as I just didn't have it long enough. Hope this answers some questions. Blessings! TK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete-o MSU Posted August 8, 2017 Share #171 Posted August 8, 2017 Thanks for the reply Tom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted August 8, 2017 Share #172 Posted August 8, 2017 Dirt Detective..i think the provenance on the Shelton helmet is so far that i know just the chain of custody of collectors who owned before DZ got his hands on it...and well said 66collector...we all shouldnt panic yet about every helmet that went through DZs hands im sure thrre were plenty of originals and surely from this evidence there must have been some that were tainted, embelished or down right faked..hopefully this can all be sorted out abd cool heads will prevail...not the time to turn on eachother or come up with crazy theories about sheltons son being in on it, thats plain absurd to think that as him commenting on his dads helmets thread brought it all to the top and all our attentions especially the guys who realized something fishy was going on....why would a potential con man do that to himself??!.....like 66 and ithers have said we all should leatn from this to be a little more vigilant and a little less blind trusting but lets not get too paranoid and lets not let this ruin our awesome hobby of collecting helmets...mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gitana Posted August 8, 2017 Share #173 Posted August 8, 2017 Until we hear from Jkash its all just theory and tin foil hat mentality. It's not a theory, it has been established that the helmet was modified in a very obvious way. What we're all waiting on is the explanation. I'm betting on, "My cat dipped its tail in a bucket of paint and then swished it all over the helmet. Then I forgot it wasn't like that originally." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralCheese Posted August 8, 2017 Share #174 Posted August 8, 2017 So, I've been following this thread, as has 50% of the forum (it appears). In early 2015 (January??) I purchased a large collection, to include Cpl. Jay Barr's reinforced D-Day jump set, Jack Agnew's (YES - The Filthy 13) duty belt, holster, canteen and wire cutters and a couple of helmets, to include the one that started this thread. My focus was to keep the Jay Barr set (period). I sold the Shelton helmet and other items to Erik Dorr to offset my investment in the Barr M42 set. ** AS A SIDE NOTE: Erik Dorr has one of the BEST collections I've ever seen in 40+ years of collecting! He backs up his items/artifacts with killer vetted provenance. Let's put to bed any problems there - his stuff (to include the entire Maj. Richard D. Winters Collection) - is nothing less than remarkable. ** I sold the helmet (and other items) to Erik, as the helmet was originally posted by Jamie. It is 1000% right, unmessed with and real. What has been done to it is nothing short of utter and gross disrespect for the history linked to the helmet. I will not accuse anyone - as though the information appears damning, I'd want ALL of the facts first. As to "Why", it seems the almighty dollar was the reason. I cannot remember the details of the Lt. bar on the liner or not. I never photographed the helmet, as I just didn't have it long enough. Hope this answers some questions. Blessings! TK If the helmet came from a collection, it's not infeasible that it was faked before you even got it, especially if you paid a lot of money for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasonK Posted August 8, 2017 Share #175 Posted August 8, 2017 It's not a theory, it has been established that the helmet was modified in a very obvious way. What we're all waiting on is the explanation. I'm betting on, "My cat dipped its tail in a bucket of paint and then swished it all over the helmet. Then I forgot it wasn't like that originally." I agree, in that it's no longer a "theory". Additionally, at this point, I'm not sure what explanation could be given that would satisfy the masses. I honestly would be very surprised if we hear any type of response. Even if the Shelton helmet was determined to be inauthentic (it appears to have a pretty concrete chain of custody, so leaning towards this not being the case), he would still have to explain trying to sell a mocked-up helmet for $10k. Lose-lose on his part no matter how you look at it. I wouldn't be surprised if he just faded away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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