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Medal Collectors and Militaria Collectors...we have a fight on our hands.


tarbridge
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Captainofthe7th

I have been listening to NPR lately and was thinking of contacting them. I don't know what they might be able to do or what their opinion might be...

 

Rob

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PHR seems to be the only large collector of these items now ! I wish I could get $150,000 in donations for my collection! I still think use the governments standards for getting medals to next of kin might be An option? Why all the positive PR for PHR when he's basically buying them also ? And then giving them to not the next of kin but distant relatives that are no different then General public in their own policies! Bottom line he's made a business of this !

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PHR seems to be the only large collector of these items now ! I wish I could get $150,000 in donations for my collection! I still think use the governments standards for getting medals to next of kin might be An option? Why all the positive PR for PHR when he's basically buying them also ? And then giving them to not the next of kin but distant relatives that are no different then General public in their own policies! Bottom line he's made a business of this !

We are delving into all these practices.
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It certainly is not me but it would be a benefit to have a Purple Heart recipient who is in the collecting community be "the face" of collectors if they are willing. Not trying to put words in their mouth but someone who is a recipient and is willing to speak as to why they collect Purple Hearts and how they would hope their legacy/memory would be preserved down the road if need be by a fellow collector.

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<p>Would it be beneficial to to contact local VFW and American legion organizations to see what their thoughts are. Even the Purple Heart organization. It may be a way to gauge them or get them on our side.I believe both have magazines.A letter to the editor may get the ball rolling. A well crafted letter to these organization reminding them that they fought for freedom and the right to to partake in legal activity. Much like gun control,these are slippery slopes and erode our very freedoms.</p>

<p>A death by a thousand cuts</p>

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[some posters here need to stop dismissing ideas because they aren't theirs and listen to all of us weighing in to suggest solutions.]

 

If you can frame this issue devoid of emotion, patriotism, self-promotion, etc. it boils down to the government telling people that they can not sell, donate, trade, or possess a medal that is, once awarded, a piece of personal property. It's really no different than someone selling their Olympic medal, Super Bowl ring, Emmy statuette, or ammo pouches except for how it is "earned" which is where the emotion comes in. Proposing legislation that seems ethically and perhaps even legally invalid might be seen as excessive and unnecessary.

 

That is a message that can be easily understood by legislators, the media, and the average citizen. So use whatever channels you can to protest the proposal - write your lawmakers, write an OP/Ed piece for your local paper, write in online blogs or in response to related articles, post your opinion on Facebook, contact local news stations, whatever.

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Captainofthe7th

Go for Rob...we need good press.Let us know.

 

 

as you wish....it is done.

 

We will see what becomes of my pleas. I basically just explained our values and asked them to help us collectors get good press on an issue that we are slandered over.

 

Rob

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I know the "The Military Order of the Purple Heart " and "The Army Times" is stitched to the PHR group.

Maybe writing to the Headquarters of the VFW and American Legion could help.Anybody have connections in these two entities ?

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as you wish....it is done.

 

We will see what becomes of my pleas. I basically just explained our values and asked them to help us collectors get good press on an issue that we are slandered over.

 

Rob

Thanks...
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We need a list of folks to write and contact...

Military Order of the Purple Heart

American Legion

VFW

The Army Times

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I'm talking to Fred and this Jomsa will have a update on their activities. We need to help provide options and suggestions on combating the bill.

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We need a list of folks to write and contact...

Military Order of the Purple Heart

American Legion

VFW

The Army Times

Gold Star Mothers

DAV

PAV

Curators at museums like NMMC, ASOM, etc.

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I do not want to put member Dave on the spot.If I am out of line I apologize in advance.

Dave has interviewed and interacted with more medal awardees and their families than probably anybody. His insight on this topic would be invaluable.

If he chooses to not give an opinion,I could understand. Maybe a private conversation with Tarbridge would help give insight.

Once again I apologize if I'm out of bounds.

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Schofield1943

I was speaking to a lawyer friend of mine who suggested focusing on the fact that the proposed law is unenforceable. Namely - how does Congress intend to actually enforce this proposed legislation?

 

At it stands there are already laws and remedies on the books for stolen or lost medals. This law would create a crime out of something that is currently victimless - who exactly is harmed when two consenting parties agree to sell a medal between each other? No one. So how would the government enforce this?

 

A proposed example would be as such - an individual sells a PH to another at a price of $400. A federal prosecutor would subsequently need to present the findings to a grand jury who would bring forth an indictment. The buyer/seller are arrested and indicted. Does the federal government want to take that to trial? Do we even have the time and/or resources for a case this trivial to go to trial?

 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter because it would be our right to a jury trial. So instead of agreeing to a plea deal a trial goes forth - over a $400 transaction of a medal. All of which costs many tax dollars and man hours on the federal level - all for a victimless crime.

 

My lawyer friend thought Congress would likely be more receptive to the real world implications of the law as opposed to the emotional aspects. Mostly because HR6234 is simply unenforceable.

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I do not want to put member Dave on the spot.If I am out of line I apologize in advance.

Dave has interviewed and interacted with more medal awardees and their families than probably anybody. His insight on this topic would be invaluable.

If he chooses to not give an opinion,I could understand. Maybe a private conversation with Tarbridge would help give insight.

Once again I apologize if I'm out of bounds.

 

 

No spotting needed... :)

 

Yes, I've interviewed a lot of Gold Star families (not awardees). But, to be very frank, as good of people as many of them are, most don't share the enthusiasm of collecting Purple Hearts that we do (in fact, the term "repulsive" and others like it have come up several times...) That's why I've had to frame my books as memorializing the men and women who were killed in action through their Purple Hearts instead of them being a "collector's guide". (And no, I'm not being unethical; I personally believe that I am creating a memorial to their loved one(s) and also shining a light on the person who earned the medal, not just the medal itself. If a collector happens to find knowledge and use from the book, then that is fantastic...but the book is biography-heavy instead of numismatic-centric. Have I kicked around the idea of writing a small book on collecting Purple Hearts after I'm done? Sure...so long as the law doesn't pass...but you won't see any of the Gold Star family-sourced awards in there.)

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but I still stand by my comments in the previous thread. I'll be Chicken Little and say the sky IS falling for the following reasons (same as my previous ones but hopefully more brief):

 

1. Voting against anything related to veterans, particularly Gold Star families, is a political killer.

 

2. We collectors probably equal the number of Gold Star families. However, they've been in the spotlight since their child was killed. They've had parades. They've had condolence letters from the President on down. Unless they kill somebody, they are elevated to a social status (with regard to military stuff) far beyond what any collector could possibly attain.

 

On our side, we have the "good guys" who are doing the right thing, who really appreciate the Purple Hearts and really collect them for (what I feel) is(are) the right reason(s). Guys like tarbridge, elmiii, tom lane, and others who really work hard to preserve preserve the memory of the person behind the medal. They're the good ones. Then there are a-holes who are purely in it for a buck and would chortle the whole way home after paying a Gold Star family $5 for their loved one's Purple Heart.

 

It's kind of like a restaurant. It might have the best food you've ever had, but if every 100th person who eats there gets food poisoning...what does the restaurant get known for? Food poisoning - not good food. And what happens when the media starts covering the restaurant? They're not going to report that every 100th person is getting food poisoning and that you have a 99% chance of eating the best food of your life and never getting poisoned. No, what's going to be reported is that there's wide-spread food poisoning...and basically making it sound like every person who eats there is going to get it...when the data show that's not the case.

 

So that's what we're up against. For every visible "good guy" on our side, there are many others who are also good guys who are doing the right thing and aren't in the spotlight (and that's fine). But then there are the others who aren't the good guys and when they strike...then they give us all a black eye.

 

To go further, Fike and PHR isn't beyond manufacturing stories in order to increase the empathy vote. Like the medals "returned" to the family of a Navy veteran on Veteran's Day...that were completely brand-new reissues, but were tagged with the story of 'some [evil] dealer in Canada sold them'. Hmmm...strange...going to all that effort to return a set of reissued medals? Something doesn't add up...but he got a mountain of credit for it, that's for sure (and the list goes on...with the Fike-illegally-awarded Purple Heart to the WW1 vet who died from the flu, etc.)

 

3. Once this is re-introduced for the next Congress, I believe the best tact to take on it is not voting against it, but in making sure it's a common sense law. Granted, those common-sense laws are already on the books...but if they are hard-over on seeing this thing get passed, the members of congress need to be made aware that enforcing it will be nigh impossible and it will be a financially untenable law (who is going to pay to have the FBI at every flea market, policing for Purple Hearts so they can issue a misdemeanor? Or will it fall on the local police, whose resources are already overtaxed, to enforce it?)

 

The law is unfortunately a horribly-written "feel good" law that masquerades itself as a "helping veterans and Gold Star families" piece of legislation, when it reality it is a potential drain of millions of dollars in tax money vilifying some of the most upstanding citizens in many communities.

 

Just my thoughts (apparently less truncated that I hoped!)

 

Dave

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I wonder if what we need is a high profile (non-collector) sponsor. Someone who the media could not characterize as a "profiteering collector/dealer". Someone who could speak other from the recipient or families perspective. When there is no one left in the family who would want it (or no one left in the family period) the recipient and/or family member should have the right to pass the medal on to whomever THEY deem fit (not who ancestry.com says is a genealogical match).

 

What about Taya Kyle? She seems to be pretty well respected and is sometimes a contributor for Fox News. We need a voice that people will listen to and not pre-judge IMO.

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As I see it, this bill is very likely going to be passed next year, and we are running out of time. I think we need to be more proactive, creative, and open-minded in our strategy. Here are my suggestions to this issue:

 

 

1) Continue writing letters. While I do not discourage writing letters to Congressmen and Senators, the few replies that forum members received and posted seemed to be cut-and-paste generic responses without any strong support or sympathy for our cause. I personally do not believe that these letters alone will be enough to sway the opinions of those who support this bill (not trying to be negative, just analyzing the situation). However, in the mean time, I'd suggest to keep writing those letters.

 

2) Create a petition. Strength in numbers will be crucial in this issue to sway the increasing support for this bill. If you want legislation to change (or in this case, not be passed), the government has to see that a large amount of people are not supportive of it. When this issue was discussed originally in October, I suggested (as did a few others) that we create a petition (on paper, online, or both). This petition could be solicited to online militaria forums, and also brought to shows. I don't know if anything like this has been done yet, but I think this would be more effective than writing letters. I know the shows will be starting up again in January, so that would be a good time to make more people aware of this issue and gain support.

 

3) Organize a defense. I believe that some kind of small committee should be created to organize the fight against this bill, obtain suggestions, and provide updates to those who are concerned. It would also create leadership and a "face" for our cause. Perhaps senior members of OMSA, experienced medal collectors, and collectors with experience in politics or law may organize to lead the fight. I believe that an organized, unified fight against this bill will be most effective.

 

4) Positive public relations. We need to get more positive PR out there to support our stance on this issue. I commend those who have done news stories or had articles written about our perspective on this issue. We need more of this. If anyone is planning on setting up displays at libraries, schools, etc., that could be used as positive PR.

 

5) Get Donald Trump's support. Although some people may dismiss this idea immediately, I think his support may be our best option, considering how he reacted to being given a veteran's Purple Heart Medal during his campaign. He can probably influence this bill to not get passed, or perhaps even veto if it does. If he could be made aware of this issue somehow, and is supportive of us, I think his support may be our best shot at this point.

 

6) The posts about this issue need to remain unlocked. I know that the initial posting got locked because emotions ran high and things got a little out of control. However, we need to stay focused, and civil. For many (including me), the forum is the only way that we have become aware and updated on this issue. Having the post get locked out only suppresses this information, and hurts our potential for stopping this bill.

 

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Okay Gentleman,

Any ideas on things to do to counteract this proposed bill besides the writing campaign to our representatives?

Just some suggestions:

 

1) Along with the emails, snail mail and phone calls perhaps some of us could schedule a face to face conversation with our legislators.

 

2) Some of our members sent up historical displays; invite your legislators and the media to a display showcasing what we do with and how we research our collections.

 

3) Prepare a talk/presentation for your local community. In other words get the word out to the public to change their ideas about us. We could do a presentation at any community event. Especially one of the patriotic holidays. Most libraries have speakers come in to the library and give presentations. We could also give presentations at a community center, historical society, veterans origination, etc., etc. The idea being to transform the publics view of what we do and show them tangible proof how we honor our heros.

 

I have only scratched the surface and Im sure others can come up with additional ideas. In my opinion the only way to win this battle is to change the publics perception.

 

Good luck to all as this is an uphill battle!

 

Brent

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This reminds me of the law that someone tried to pass that would ban all items formerly owned by the DoD and previous versions (The War Department) which would have made ALL surplus illegal. The military vehicle owner community and the warbird community went bonkers and did some lobbying, but I never heard the details on that. That one got killed, but this proposed law is a slippery slope where later, any lawmaker could ban any former military item owned by the public.

Contact your local TV and other news media to tell your side of the story.

Give them the names of the people that you reunited with their family medals to tell that story.

Pass along any and all positive information about the current state of collecting.

That doesn't sound like a great idea to me, as saying you're returning the medals to the families would support the premise of the law, that collectors shouldn't have them in the first place.

Ask the media what they'd prefer, medals owned by collectors who bought them or were given them by family members who didn't care anymore,

OR, having them in the bottom of a landfill or (if they're lucky) stacked up in boxes in a museum back room, never to see the light of day again?

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Yes.I'm the poster child for everything they claim and dis-like...I buy -sell and trade medals...and collect. I've never felt shameful or embarrassed...nor have I ever to my knowledge...bought one that was stolen.

We have to fight this Bill and we may lose, but we have to try.I might be naive but even if it passes I think it eventually will be appealed. So any effort is better than no effort.As to what Dave said, I basically agree...we will lose Public opinion. I have had a storefront business about 35 years, many people have passed through the doors.Many had no concept concerning the collecting of Medals, I have explained it many times ...most would come to an understanding. Some were more agreeable while some incredulous at the thought. It will always be that way.

 

They call us profiteers and evil...we bought, sold,traded,salvaged, saved,rescued, honored and respected these medals. It is a matter of facts that they are bought and sold...it gets them out of the trash...shoeboxes...closets...reinvigorates their lost memory. If this is a description of evil profiteers ...call me one anytime.

So I'm a evil profiteers...I have a fairly large and if I say myself...a decent collection. I would venture to say if I sold it...I would lose money...the collection was not assembled to make a "Profit "...I had guys to find and stories to tell.

 

So I'm a evil profiteer...my medal collection rests in half of my building...I have turned down $1000 a month to rent it out...the utilities and insurance cost about $350 per month...so it costs me $1350 per month to display and tell the stories...respect and honor the memory of our heroes...Yes...that is me...a evil profiteer.

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The bill has the right intention but is, as has been stated, misguided. Who really among us does not believe that it would be great if all families honored their families' military service and kept all of their medals forever - somewhat impossible for many reasons. The backers of this bill have the jump on the collecting community through their alliances and fabricated bad image of us. So what can we do....perhaps a multi faceted approach. One which includes letters to Congressman/Senators, Judicial committee etc and the other an educational one intended to show those who oppose us that we are not the enemy and we can work together with them for a "greater" good as well as informing them of the unintentional consequences (as have happened with the CMOH).

 

The MOPH HQ is located in Springfield, VA. Perhaps a visit with them/their leadership to discuss the bill and its unintended consequences. I am in the area and I know, Fred (OMSA President) is also. (He and I are both 20 plus year veterans of the Army) Also a meeting with some of the Congressional Professional staff on the Judicial committee might be a good idea. I like the idea of Fred in these meetings since he is not only a vet, and medal collector but also a retired Army JAG. Also perhaps an OPED piece in one of the DC newspapers...or something in the American Legion magazine or Military Order of the World Wars (which I am a Life member).

 

Below is the link to an interesting article in the Telegraph (United Kingdom) which discusses the increasing value of British valor medals and the CARE and RESPECT which collectors give these items. Quite a different view from across the pond.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11280125/The-war-medals-that-have-soared-in-value.html

 

I think the message to these organization(s) would be "stronger" and convey more weight if it came from a vet, especially one who is the recipient of the PH.

 

Thoughts.

 

Gary B

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This bill will only be supported by misguided, misinformed and less than honorable congressmen. Make sure your representatives understand that this legislation is Un-American and is a deal breaker for future support and reelection. I for one will never vote for a political who supports this ridiculous unconstitutional property grab. That said I have faith that America is fed up with government overreach and threats against our veterans and will defeat this bill.

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