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HR 6234 responses from elected officials


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Then everyone can give them to PHR...as we know there are more negatives than positives in this bill...not much thought into the overall results.

 

Indeed - and while it would be ideal to stop this bill before it passed - if it does pass (as many of us feel it likely will because these people will pass pretty much anything) - then it will be up to us to mount a legitimate legal challenge to HR6234. It is through the courts that this issue will ultimately be decided - as long as we would be willing to pursue it.

 

Perhaps a USMF crowd-funded legal challenge - while there's little potential of our voices being taken seriously in the halls of Congress it is a much different scenario in the court system (and I'm not being starry eyed - there's a woman who lives in my building who took the feds all the way to the Supreme Court and won). Between private property rights and what would amount to a government "taking" (not literally) I think there is a legitimate challenge there. Plus there are already laws on the books to deal with the meat of the issue they have (stolen or lost) and the fact that singling out the Purple Heart over other medals is arbitrary.

 

I wonder if it's worth reaching out to the defense council who had the original SVA overturned (even though that was a freedom of speech case).

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As said earlier...there are a few things being organized and thought thru...we are not publicized. All these are good ideas and if you the capabilities by all means do it.

One large problem is a lack of organization...a lot of us floating in a big sea in different life rafts, we will have to pull us together...the will help us by combining our efforts.

Always Buying...Medals...Patches...Wings... Singles or Groups...Top Cash Paid!!!

My Website...http://www.purpleheartsnorthcarolina.com/

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"Perhaps a USMF crowd-funded legal challenge..."

 

That ^ has potential, plausible but long-shot and expensive unless a pro bono attorney or law firm can be convinced.

 

Something else that might work faster/cheaper would be to find one or two national "celebrity" legislators and/or media pundits willing to flog this until Congress gives up in embarrassment.

HONORING FAMILY LtCol Wm Russell (1679-1757) VA Mil; Pvt Zachariah McKay (1714-97) Frederick VA Mil; BrigGen Evan Shelby, Jr (1719-94) VA Mil; Pvt Vincent Hobbs (1722-1808) Wythe VA Mil; Pvt Hugh Alexander (1724-77); Lt John R. Litton (1726-1804); Bvt BrigGen/Col Wm W. Russell (1735-93) 5th VA Rgmt; Lt James Scott (1736-1817); Capt John Murray, Sr (1747-1833); Capt John Sehorn, Sr (1748-1831) VA Mil; Pvt Corbin Lane (1750-1816) Franklin/TN Mil; Cpl Jesse D. Reynolds (1750-1836) 5th VA Rgmt; Capt. Solomon C. Litton (1751-1844); 1Lt Christopher Casey (1754-1840) SC Mil; Pvt Mark Adams (1755-1828); Pvt Randolph White (1755-1831) Bailey's Co. VA Rgmt; Capt. John R. Russell (1758-1838); Pvt Joseph T. Cooley (1767-1826) Fort Hempstead Mil; Pvt Thomas Barron (1776-1863) 1812; Capt. John Baumgardner (1787-1853) VA Mil; Pvt Joel Estep (1828-1864) Co B 5th KY Inf CSA & US; Pvt George B. Bell (1833-1910) Co C 47th IL Inf US; Cpl Daniel H. Barron (1838-1910) Co B 19th TN Rgmt Inf CSA; Capt Richard K. Kaufman (1908-1946) 7th PRG/3rd AF CCU; T-5 Vernon L. Bell (1926-95) 1802nd Spec Rgmt; PO2 Murray J. Heichman (1932-2019) HQSB/MCRD; PFC Jess Long (1934-2017) US Army; PFC Donald W. Johnson (1931-) 43rd ID HQ; A1C Keith W. Bell (1931-2011) 314th TCW; A3C Michael S. Bell (1946-) 3346th CMS; A1C Sam W. Lee (1954-2017) 2d BW; AW3 Keith J. Price (1975-) VP-10; 1Lt Matthew Wm Bell (1985-) 82nd Abn/SOC








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The ACLU. Freedom of personal property falls under the umbrella of civil liberties.

In memory of Dr. Leo P. Krall, USPHS
USS Uniontown (PF-65)

Interested in uniforms / groupings from Massachusetts and New England veterans

(particularly 26th "Yankee" Division), and original propaganda leaflets from WWI and WWII.

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The ACLU. Freedom of personal property falls under the umbrella of civil liberties.

 

This, I believe, is the one and only chance for a long term remedy. I think writing letters is fine if it makes people feel better but, in my opinion at least, it will have little or no impact on the outcome.

 

This must be a legal challenge from a property rights perspective. Listen closely to what Fike says. He does not believe that any PH should be in any "private collection". So, if you think they are going to stop with buying, selling, etc. think again. And, as others have said, this is a slippery slope which could very well end up encompassing any military related (government issued) item of historical significance.

 

In essence this law will prevent veterans, relatives of veterans or any legal owner from transferring ownership of their property in a means they deem fit (just because some guy who happened to find a PH in a junk shop one day has taken it upon himself to deprive them of their rights)

 

Does anyone here have any personal connection to an ACLU lawyer? What could it hurt to at least have a consultation if we could arrange one?

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There has not been or ever a opportunity to compromise with Cook or Fike...our fight is against the Bill...

I have read some statements, etc.from Fike, but is there some particular instance that really turned him against collectors. That is, did he approach someone demanding they turn over their medal and get turned down so he set off on his little crusade?

RIP Molly...Oct. 2000 - July 2013 For 13 years you have been my best friend and companion, giving love and asking only for love in return. May you rest now, free from your pain. I will miss you girl, and will keep you in my heart forever....the sweetest dog and best friend ever! I'll see you again one day.


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This, I believe, is the one and only chance for a long term remedy. I think writing letters is fine if it makes people feel better but, in my opinion at least, it will have little or no impact on the outcome.

 

This must be a legal challenge from a property rights perspective. Listen closely to what Fike says. He does not believe that any PH should be in any "private collection". So, if you think they are going to stop with buying, selling, etc. think again. And, as others have said, this is a slippery slope which could very well end up encompassing any military related (government issued) item of historical significance.

 

In essence this law will prevent veterans, relatives of veterans or any legal owner from transferring ownership of their property in a means they deem fit (just because some guy who happened to find a PH in a junk shop one day has taken it upon himself to deprive them of their rights)

 

Does anyone here have any personal connection to an ACLU lawyer? What could it hurt to at least have a consultation if we could arrange one?

Exactly. It's a very important property rights issue.

 

 

Wharf

In Peace and War, US Merchant Marine. WARNING: Dangerous Cargo. No Visitors, No Smoking, No Open Lights.

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It's worth looking over the summary of the SVA decision as it contains references which I will attach below that suggest the groundwork for HR6234...

 

https://origin-www.bloomberglaw.com/public/desktop/document/United_States_v_Alvarez_No_11210_2012_BL_160939_US_June_28_2012_C?1482418029

 

The plurality argued that:

 

© It seeks to protect the interests of those who have sacrificed their health and life for their country by seeking to preserve intact the country's recognition of that sacrifice in the form of military honors. P. 8.

(d) It may, however, be possible substantially to achieve the Government's objective in less burdensome ways. The First Amendment risks flowing from the Act's breadth of coverage could be diminished or eliminated by a more finely tailored statute, for example, a statute that requires a showing that the false statement caused specific harm or is focused on lies more likely to be harmful or on contexts where such lies are likely to cause harm. Pp. 8-10.

 

Their focus was on the harm caused by the lies in that particular case. it makes me wonder if a similar standard might apply to HR6234 - who precisely is harmed when two consenting parties agree to sell a verifiably not stolen medal? No one. In the overwhelming majority of cases it is actually the literal opposite - a medal is saved and a serviceman continues to be honored and remembered.

 

It also notes (and I imagine this is where they are getting their cues for HR6234 from):

 

Both the plurality and JUSTICE BREYER argue that Congress could have preserved the integrity of military honors by means other than a criminal prohibition, but Congress had ample reason to believe that alternative approaches would not be adequate. The chief alternative that is recommended is the compilation and release of a comprehensive list or database of actual medal recipients. If the public could readily access such a resource, it is argued, imposters would be quickly and easily exposed, [**604] and the proliferation of lies about military honors would come to an end.

 

This remedy, unfortunately, will not work. The Department of Defense has explained that the most that it can do is to create a database of recipients of certain top military honors awarded since 2001. See Office of Undersecretary of Defense, Report to the Senate and House Armed Services Committees on a Searchable Military Valor Decorations Database 4-5 (2009).

Because a sufficiently comprehensive database is not practicable, lies about military awards cannot be remedied by what the plurality calls "counterspeech." Ante, at 15. Without the requisite database, many efforts to refute false claims may be thwarted, and some legitimate award recipients may be erroneously attacked. In addition, a steady stream of stories in the media about the exposure of imposters would tend to increase skepticism among members of the public about the entire awards system. This would only exacerbate the harm that the Stolen Valor Act is meant to prevent.

The plurality and the concurrence also suggest that Congress could protect the system of military honors by enacting a narrower statute. The plurality recommends a law that would apply only to lies that are intended to "secure moneys or other valuable considerations." Ante, at 11. In a similar vein, the concurrence comments that "a more finely tailored statute might . . . insist upon a showing that the false statement caused specific harm." Ante, at 9 (opinion of BREYER, J.). But much damage is caused, both to real award recipients and to the system of military honors, by false statements that are not linked to any financial or other tangible reward. Unless even a small financial loss—say, a dollar given to a homeless man falsely claiming to be a decorated veteran—is more important in the eyes of the First Amendment than the damage caused to the very integrity of the military awards system, there is no basis for distinguishing between the Stolen Valor Act and the alternative statutes that the plurality and concurrence appear willing to sustain.

JUSTICE BREYER [***23] also proposes narrowing the statute so that it covers a shorter list of military awards, ante, at 9 (opinion concurring in judgment), but he does not provide a hint about where he thinks the line must be drawn. Perhaps he expects Congress to keep trying until it eventually passes a law that draws the line in just the right

 

The word harm is mentioned in that summary over 60 times and it was clearly a focus of the SVA re-decision - namely that there had to be some harm involved to someone and in that case the harm was interpreted as intent of obtaining money or tangible benefit from said award through lying.

 

When two consenting parties agree to sell private property between each other that is not stolen - no one is harmed. Mr. Fike might try to claim he is harmed but I'm fairly certain that's not reason enough to change the federal criminal code.

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I've been following this story and I'm curious to know, what does Fike intend to do with all the PHs that aren't named and not able to be returned to families? If he keeps them isn't he in turn collecting them but doing so under the guise of his PHR organization?

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This crowd has gone deadly silent, a Cinderella story outta nowhere. Former greenskeeper and now about to become the masters champion....Carl Spackler

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I've been following this story and I'm curious to know, what does Fike intend to do with all the PHs that aren't named and not able to be returned to families? If he keeps them isn't he in turn collecting them but doing so under the guise of his PHR organization?

Exactly. I read a couple of his Return Stories, and not all of them have a conclusion. Also, it's strange that he frames a lot of these PHs, where you can't see the names on the back.

 

Reminds me of a story I heard about a museum curator who switched out the named PHs for blank ones.

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I looked at Major Fike's website. The website, which is very well done, seems to be a platform extolling the life and virtues of Major Fike. The purple Heart crusade seems to take a backseat to Fike promoting himself. My guess is that he will soon be running for Congress.

Dick

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I've been following this story and I'm curious to know, what does Fike intend to do with all the PHs that aren't named and not able to be returned to families? If he keeps them isn't he in turn collecting them but doing so under the guise of his PHR organization?

 

 

I read in one of the articles about him/his organization that he believes if a relative of a PH can not be found the medal should be donated to a museum. The problem is that a museum only has limited space to display items. Additionally, museums like to de-acess items from their collection to raise funds to buy other items more in line with their mission statement, but if you can't sell these then the museum will just have a bunch of PH medals in their basement until they get so many of them that they turn away PHs being donated since they just don't want to be a storage facility.

 

Gary B

ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

 

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... most museums (as of 2014 there were a few more than 35,000 in the USA) store about 75% of their collections. In the case of huge museums, such as the Smithsonian, that percentage is much much higher.

 

Museums have four purposes:

Acquisition

Exhibition

Interpretation

Preservation (which includes storage)

HONORING FAMILY LtCol Wm Russell (1679-1757) VA Mil; Pvt Zachariah McKay (1714-97) Frederick VA Mil; BrigGen Evan Shelby, Jr (1719-94) VA Mil; Pvt Vincent Hobbs (1722-1808) Wythe VA Mil; Pvt Hugh Alexander (1724-77); Lt John R. Litton (1726-1804); Bvt BrigGen/Col Wm W. Russell (1735-93) 5th VA Rgmt; Lt James Scott (1736-1817); Capt John Murray, Sr (1747-1833); Capt John Sehorn, Sr (1748-1831) VA Mil; Pvt Corbin Lane (1750-1816) Franklin/TN Mil; Cpl Jesse D. Reynolds (1750-1836) 5th VA Rgmt; Capt. Solomon C. Litton (1751-1844); 1Lt Christopher Casey (1754-1840) SC Mil; Pvt Mark Adams (1755-1828); Pvt Randolph White (1755-1831) Bailey's Co. VA Rgmt; Capt. John R. Russell (1758-1838); Pvt Joseph T. Cooley (1767-1826) Fort Hempstead Mil; Pvt Thomas Barron (1776-1863) 1812; Capt. John Baumgardner (1787-1853) VA Mil; Pvt Joel Estep (1828-1864) Co B 5th KY Inf CSA & US; Pvt George B. Bell (1833-1910) Co C 47th IL Inf US; Cpl Daniel H. Barron (1838-1910) Co B 19th TN Rgmt Inf CSA; Capt Richard K. Kaufman (1908-1946) 7th PRG/3rd AF CCU; T-5 Vernon L. Bell (1926-95) 1802nd Spec Rgmt; PO2 Murray J. Heichman (1932-2019) HQSB/MCRD; PFC Jess Long (1934-2017) US Army; PFC Donald W. Johnson (1931-) 43rd ID HQ; A1C Keith W. Bell (1931-2011) 314th TCW; A3C Michael S. Bell (1946-) 3346th CMS; A1C Sam W. Lee (1954-2017) 2d BW; AW3 Keith J. Price (1975-) VP-10; 1Lt Matthew Wm Bell (1985-) 82nd Abn/SOC








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I looked at Major Fike's website. The website, which is very well done, seems to be a platform extolling the life and virtues of Major Fike. The purple Heart crusade seems to take a backseat to Fike promoting himself. My guess is that he will soon be running for Congress.

Dick

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I looked at Major Fike's website. The website, which is very well done, seems to be a platform extolling the life and virtues of Major Fike. The purple Heart crusade seems to take a backseat to Fike promoting himself. My guess is that he will soon be running for Congress.

Dick

He is pretty full of himself!!! My father was a 2 war combat wounded vet and care about Vets and honoring his comrades ! He was founding member of phila Korean War memorial he made it his life's work to honor the fallen compiling all the names for the memorial raising money but was humble and loved the fact that I collected hearts ! I don't understand how a vet who bleed for freedom would want to take rights away from people ? And become so full of himself that he thinks he hold moral high ground ??? I have known many friend of my Dads WWII to Vietnam vets who were wounded and they never judged me as a collector even if they disagreed with it ! Guess it's maybe they were old school and believed in freedom and what they bleed and fought for ? Not to push their way on all !

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I looked at Major Fike's website. The website, which is very well done, seems to be a platform extolling the life and virtues of Major Fike. The purple Heart crusade seems to take a backseat to Fike promoting himself. My guess is that he will soon be running for Congress.

Dick

I think he is going to run for congress or some other elected office also.

 

He puts himself at the center of everything and every photo op.

 

If he cared more about the veterans they would be at the center of everything. (Which they should be) We shouldn't even know his name (Fike) if all he wanted to do was tell the veteran stories and return lost Purple Hearts.

 

I think I read somewhere he said it takes $1500 to return a Purple Heart....No it does not. It costs 1500 for a Fike to travel wherever himself, stay in a hotel, get a photo op, food, etc...

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!!!!! Wanted!!!!!!!

USMC Chosin Reservoir Medal Groups

Cross Groupings: Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, and Distinguished Flying Cross Medal Groups
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He is doing this for notoriety ! I have returned a few hearts to family over the years never saw the need to beg for money for travel and get press coverage! I just put them in a box and mailed them ! He likes his photo taken for sure !

Glad my Dad (wounded infantryman 5th RCT)is not here to see what a soldier is doing to stop collecting of PHs ! He always thought collectors help remember the soldier and his loss ! loved to see the research and that the story of his life and death was remembered !

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Well...we know there are more negatives than positives, so if we can get everyone else to see thru him.He took in $179,000 in donations one year...he is fooling a lot of folks.

Wow wish I could bring in that to add to my collection!!

Unreal but we are the creeps and the thieves !

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1: According to Fike, purple hearts shouldn't be sold to another collector for the profit. Anyone who was willing to pay $750 for a purple heart would treasure it more than families who pay nothing for it.

 

2: Our troops fought wars for freedom. Including the 1st amendment (even for posers' freedom whether we and they like it or not) and the 4th amendment which protects our rights to our personal properties. IMO, it is a slap in their face.

 

3: I think Fike has a good intention. However, since he said he collect militaria as well, he must be a naive because the very bill is threatening his hobby. He may be very well shooting his own foot. This bill is a slippery slope to more laws and regulations. Soon ALL medals would be banned for sale. Heck, who knows families would try to sue collectors for owning named M1 helmet or uniform belonging to relatives on grounds of this bill.

 

The whole thing is ridulicious.

ALWAYS ON A LOOK-OUT FOR OEF/OIF ITEMS.

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1: According to Fike, purple hearts shouldn't be sold to another collector for the profit. Anyone who was willing to pay $750 for a purple heart would treasure it more than families who pay nothing for it.

 

We really can't make that argument, and it kind of plays into the idea of the "greedy collector" that PHR is so eager to promote. The idea behind all of this is that whether it's a son/daughter, or a 5th cousin twice removed, family is always the best place for these items to stay. (If I were to be offered the effects of a distant relative who I'd never met, yeah, I'd still want them. But that's just me, since I like family history.) Now, if that 5th cousin twice removed has no interest in taking care of the medals, and no one else does either, then they should have the freedom to chose what to do with said medals, whether it's sell, donate, give away, or whatever else they decide. The basic problem here is that the bill would restrict their freedom to choose.

In memory of Dr. Leo P. Krall, USPHS
USS Uniontown (PF-65)

Interested in uniforms / groupings from Massachusetts and New England veterans

(particularly 26th "Yankee" Division), and original propaganda leaflets from WWI and WWII.

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i know that no one wants to hear this but writing letters and trying to play nice does not work, congressmen do not care about the 5 collectors in their district. Furthermore between this thread and the other thread a story is coming together of Fike being a criminal and low life, scamming money to "return" purple hearts! How much is this man pocketing every year? Also he is a collector himself with hundreds in his basement! Who knows if he's even returning the original medals, some of the photos i have seen look like replacements! If he is using this as a block for running for congress, that would make him an even bigger piece of scum.

I understand that everyone wants to save face but dig up some bad stuff on this guy, leak it via social media and ruin his reputability or at the last his chances for a political position! Furthermore if some of what has been discussed is true about Fike it is possible he could be charged a crime!

 

I think as collectors and as americans we need to protect our rights to own property! I think politicians and Fike threatening this simple freedom that so many americans died for would make fallen service men rollover in their graves!

Please Remember the Following Service Members who have passed on!

 

Manley S Webb- 1925-2006 US Navy WW2

James W Boutilier - 1921-1983 US Navy Seabees WW2

Russell W Haight - 1876-1953 Spanish American War, Cuban Pacification, Mexican Border War NYNG

Lt Colonel William H Warren 1921-2014 USAF

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