Misc UDT/SEAL insignia.

[USMarineCorps]

On 10/5/2020 at 5:39 PM, USMarineCorps said:

I tried to take a better picture of the above insignia but it's tricky since some parts are polished while others aren't. I was hesitant to consider these unmarked ones original since I've heard of insignia being made for collectors using original dies. However, this one appears to be older and the finishing is consistent with the Vanguard/ Antaya made piece above. Thoughts?

 

 

Still looking for thoughts on the above insignia. To me it looks like a period, unmarked Vanguard example, but I was told that unmarked pieces were made for collectors using original dies.

[Tonomachi]

On 10/8/2020 at 1:49 AM, USMarineCorps said:

 

Still looking for thoughts on the above insignia. To me it looks like a period, unmarked Vanguard example, but I was told that unmarked pieces were made for collectors using original dies.

Just my opinion because I don't know for sure but I've never trusted these unmarked badges that are identical to the period originals.  All of the period originals look as if they all came from the same die the only difference being what look like hand stamped hallmarks.  I say hand stamped because in some instances the hallmarks aren't in the same places and are slightly off so if it was stamped by a machine you would expect consistency.  So I have a suspicion that of the three insignia companies (Antaya, NS Meyer & Vanguard) that produced the original series of badges only one was in possession of the die and made Seal Team & UDT insignia for themselves and the other two companies.  I don't remember the exact decade but I only started seeing these unmarked badges in the late 1980s or 1990s.  So far I have only come across unmarked UDT badges as I have never seen an unmarked Seal Trident that matches those produced in circa 1972.  So one of two things could have happened in my opinion.  Either there were some left over stocks of UDT badges lying around in a box for years that were not hallmarked and someone released them into the market or they are restrikes.

 

 

[digi-shots]

Here’s a small grouping... a coupe of Tridents, name tapes and infrared patches.

 

[Tonomachi]

37 minutes ago, digi-shots said:

Here’s a small grouping... a coupe of Tridents, name tapes and infrared patches.

 

I've seen these with merrowed edges which I believe is an earlier version of this Trident for wear on DCUs.  A few years ago someone in Hong Kong made a very good copy of the spice brown thread machine embroidered on desert tan merrowed edged Trident patch.   I've seen this fake Trident sewn on DCU jackets which indicates a put together uniform.

 

 

[digi-shots]

These are all velcro backed except the long one that hasn’t been seen up yet.

[digi-shots]

Sewn up 

[Basic Rifleman]

First off, this particular thread has been a great help to me in my collecting journey. That said, I'd like to add a recent find that may further help this discussion. I'm aware this is not rock-solid evidence either way, but I recently purchased these two UDT/Seal badges together in a Navy estate. The previous discussions with regard to these UDT Badges with the drilled holes, and the idea they were made in the 1980's seems even more likely now that it was paired with a Lordship Industries badge with a known "L.I.G.I." hallmark dating from 1973 to 1985. Again, I know this is far from definitive, I just thought it might be helpful in establishing further evidence to their approximate manufacture date. 

 

Semper Fi,

Tom

[digi-shots]

Tom, nice badges and great pick up.  They are not easy to come by.

 

Here’s part of a grouping I got directly from the veteran.  I think I posted some of this previously showing hallmarks, etc.  He enlisted in 1960, graduated with UDT/R Class 30, Little Creek and served with UDT 22.  He was later reassigned to NAB Coronado, CA. where he became a member of SEAL Team 1

serving in Vietnam in 1968-69.  He retired as a Navy Commander after 32 years of service.

 

Over the years, I am sure he has attended numerous reunions, etc. and could have possibly picked up various badges, etc.

I don’t know if these were the badges that were worn with his fatigues, dress uniforms, etc. or when they were worn.  The smaller silver UDT trident is stamped Vanguard V-21 - 1/20 silver filled.  The pins on the badges show wear and tear and are a bit bent.  
 

[Basic Rifleman]

Fantastic collection, and you can't beat getting them straight from the source! Thanks for sharing!

[USMarineCorps]

On 10/26/2017 at 3:29 PM, Kadet said:

Another distant memory about mine. I think it also had those plastic clutches on it, which is one of the reasons I didn't like it. It has metal ones now. Not sure what happened to the originals

 

2

 

I have been on the hunt for one of these ever since reading your post. Found two for sale over the last 5 years, but missed out in the first one. Not sure if the tag was added for inventory of collecting purposes. I certainly looks different from the ones you usually see, and I even prefer the "sharp" look of it over the hallmarked ones. Thanks again for sharing your story with us!

 

 

[Spike]

Recent additions to my collection. All belonged to Campbell Hunter of UDT 21. I have 4 of his shirts/pants, a green sweatshirt and some misc paperwork. There was a lot more stuff but I missed out on it.

 

I didn't think the the gray tapes were used but they must have been at some point. 

[Spike]

Some UDT 13 variations.

[Spike]

I have a couple of these, they are pretty rare. 

[Spike]

I don't know how long these were used but judging by the more detailed embroidery these would be mid-60's. These are the only ones I have seen out in the wild. 

[Bearmon]

Nice patches 

[Spike]

This is of 1 of 2 shirts I got from a UDT 13 guy. The other shirt has a UDT 13 patch but this one is an oddity. The shirt is typically starched and no other patch has been on it.

[Tonomachi]

17 hours ago, Spike said:

This is of 1 of 2 shirts I got from a UDT 13 guy. The other shirt has a UDT 13 patch but this one is an oddity. The shirt is typically starched and no other patch has been on it.

Thanks for sharing this as it explains the UDT patches that I've come across in the past on two separate occasions where the lower rocket was removed.   I couldn't figure out why someone would ruin a UDT patch by removing the lower tab identifying which UDT the patch represented.   My guess is that this was a very early uniform top when they initially formed UDT-13 in 1969 to help out in the rotation schedules during the Vietnam War for UDT-11 and UDT-12.  Since they were so new there wasn't a separate UDT-13 patch available yet so this sailor simply took at UDT-11 or UDT-12 patch and cut off the lower rocker.   UDT-13 stuff is harder to find as they were disestablished in 1974 after the end of the war.  I've also wondered why they had to form UDT-13 when they could have sent UDT-21 or UDT-22 who were stationed on the East Coast.  Nice uniform.

[Spike]

Tonomachi, the patch being used before the UDT 13 versions is a good guess, something I hadn't thought about. My thought was along the lines of that was what was worn until assigned to either 11, 12 or in this case, 13. The rocker doesn't look like it's been cut off so there could be a possibility that these patches were made without a team rocker

 

UDT 13 was disestablished in late 1971 or so. The EC UDTs weren't involved in VN because their area of operations was Europe and the Mediterranean. When UDT 13 was established in 1969, some guys from UDT 21 were send over to flesh out the Team. So some UDT 21 guys did end up in VN. 

 

UDT no longer operated in VN after June 71, UDT 12, Det Golf was the last Team to operate and were based at Solid Anchor.

[Tonomachi]

6 hours ago, Spike said:

Tonomachi, the patch being used before the UDT 13 versions is a good guess, something I hadn't thought about. My thought was along the lines of that was what was worn until assigned to either 11, 12 or in this case, 13. The rocker doesn't look like it's been cut off so there could be a possibility that these patches were made without a team rocker

 

UDT 13 was disestablished in late 1971 or so. The EC UDTs weren't involved in VN because their area of operations was Europe and the Mediterranean. When UDT 13 was established in 1969, some guys from UDT 21 were send over to flesh out the Team. So some UDT 21 guys did end up in VN. 

 

UDT no longer operated in VN after June 71, UDT 12, Det Golf was the last Team to operate and were based at Solid Anchor.

Thanks for the follow up information.  I kept these photographs of another rockerless UDT patch that was being offered for sale on eBay recently.  I don't think it sold as I think the asking price was kind of high.

 

 

[Tonomachi]

I just saw these claiming to be rare original Vietnam era bullion patches.  These are copies that were made in Pakistan around the 1980s and I don't believe were ever worn by any of the Seal Teams.  

 

 

[Spike]

I saw these as well. Just collector crap.

[USMarineCorps]

On 1/2/2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrei said:

 

It’s interesting seeing this one as I recently came across a similar example in a lot of insignia I purchased.

Note how this is the same unmarked type with drilled holes that has the appearance of a theater made piece and is the silver counterpart of the one issued to one of the forum members here (Kadet).

I’m not saying that Meyer made this or that they even belonged on these cards on the first place, but it’s interesting seeing two examples of these.

One hypothesis would be that some Army Navy type of surplus store would have put these on the Meyer cards for sale. Who knows…

 

Any way, I just wanted to share this as some food for thought.

 

Fred

 

[Tonomachi]

Interesting as the NS Meyer Inc. Company cardboard backing piece looks legitimate with a little age to it and there are no more holes other than the three for this specific badge.  I've seen on eBay counterfeit Vanguard Company cardboard backing pieces being sold out of Communist China with the wrong hallmarked counterfeit insignia before.  However this cardboard backing looks genuine.  This badge was supposedly made in the Philippines and the gold finished versions were actually issued to US personnel for an unknown period of time.   Below is a picture of another example and it came with translusent blue colored plastic clutches instead of the regular metal ones.