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Can you tell the difference between these wings? Navajo pattern


5thwingmarty
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The top one has softer edges like I would expect to see on a cast wing. The bomb is a little different also, again softer edges including the pair of lines.

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Unless it is due solely to the lighting in those photographs, I perceive quite a few, albeit subtle. differences in casting between the two wings.

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Yes, lighting creates both shadows and highlights on 3-D artifacts, always.

 

So, unless the lighting and positioning of the artifact, camera angle and everything else is IDENTICAL in both images, then there are or are likely to be significant, although subtle, differences in the castings or the images.

 

First question I would want to answer for myself, apart from anomalies in lighting or photography, is what the exact, (not approximate) height, width and depth of the two wings actually is.

 

In determining this, I would want to be using a machinist's ruler - not one from an office or school supply store.

 

That would tell me a lot - maybe not that the manufacturer was different, but that that castings are (or may be, if the lighting effect is true evidence of a genuine difference).

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I am saying that it is possible, for the two wings to be the same... but, at the moment, based solely on what might be an optical illusion created by differential lighting of the two, that is not a conclusion I am likely to reach just yet.

 

I am about as far from being a wing expert as someone interested in militaria could ever be - However, I do have a fair amount of museum experience with fake, forged, reproduction and facsimile cast metal artifacts. Generally, a second casting is in one constant way almost always smaller than the original.

 

In the case of military wings, that fact may or may not have any relevance to authenticity at all. I can dream up a few scenarios whereby a manufacturer would have intentionally re-used a mold, or even have taken a mold from an original or earlier cast wing to create additional molds and castings.

 

The initial question had to do with telling the difference between two castings (I am assuming these wings were not stamped out of sheet?) To which, I would reply, Yes, I see quite a number of subtle differences - the significance of which I am not qualified to assess.

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Lighting?

Sorry I wasn't questioning your opinion but adding mine in the form of a question. Looks like lighting or to different cameras taking similar pics of the same wing to me.

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Bluehawk, I may be wrong but if I recall a thread on these wings stated that they were hammered into a mold. These are what are called Albuquerque wings or Navajo wings I just can't remember the conclusion to the naming debate lol. So yes they would have been hammered from a sheet of silver if I recall correctly. That's why I believe these to be the same wing but just different photos.

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Sorry I wasn't questioning your opinion but adding mine in the form of a question. Looks like lighting or to different cameras taking similar pics of the same wing to me.

I didn't intend to give that impression, and apologize to you for it.

 

What I am perceiving, in the two photographs, are visual differences which could, potentially, be due more to the lighting than to actuality.

 

I wish I had the computer skills to isolate those differences side-by-side in photo form here, as they are rather subtle but, to me, noticeable.

 

What that might mean, as to the identity of these wings, I cannot be sure.

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My bad, I  thought Bluehawk was stating fact not opinion.  Marty is the one that started the post so he will have to explain in the end.  The Navaho wings are hand made and not made from a mold like a casting.  I went back and looked at all the photos of Navaho wings I have and no two are alike.   So I think this is simply lighting as some of you guys said OR one is a casting of the other.

 

It looks like we have a photo of a wing in a riker, based on the background, and then a scan of a wing, based on the background and shadowing.   So are they the same wing, well have to wait for Marty to explain.

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I didn't intend to start a fight about the wing(s). I believe the photos are all of the same wing. The biggest difference is that the wing in the upper left and lower right (at least on my computer screen) was listed as a "Theater made" wing on ebay last month and sold for a buy-it-now of $295. The other photos are of a wing currently on ebay, listed as a Navajo wing with a buy-it-now asking price of $650.

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Bluehawk, I may be wrong but if I recall a thread on these wings stated that they were hammered into a mold. These are what are called Albuquerque wings or Navajo wings I just can't remember the conclusion to the naming debate lol. So yes they would have been hammered from a sheet of silver if I recall correctly. That's why I believe these to be the same wing but just different photos.

Fascinating...

 

As an example, from what I am able to see, in the lower left wing area (verso), there is a slight "dimple" defect which does seem to appear on both wings, suggesting that however they were fashioned that feature was transferred - which in turn suggests something about the way of making the wings was the same, if not identical.

 

Yet, there are several other dissimilarities in those surfaces, as well.

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Patchcollector

 

First question I would want to answer for myself, apart from anomalies in lighting or photography, is what the exact, (not approximate) height, width and depth of the two wings actually is.

 

 

Can't forget weight.Awhile back I equipped myself with a digital kitchen scale and it's come in handy on several occasions.

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These were hand made by the Navajo jewelers in the Albuquerque area. They are each hand made and no two will be exactly the same. That is why I thought one was a casting, made from an original. For that reason the weight and measurements would not help much and because they are each hand made and the two photographed have the exact same depressions, striations, flaws this is obviously the same wing photographed/scanned by the original seller and then rephotographed/scanned by the buyer/reseller.

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Ok, so looks like it is the same wing and someone making a quick buck. Bummer!

 

Or........... that someone knows their stuff due to years studying and collecting. They then used there knowledge and made an investment and now their years of studying and collecting is finally paying off. Possibly a "bummer" for someone that did not act soon enough or the guy that sold it not knowing exactly what he had, but great for the guy that can enjoy the hobby and make a few dollars and possibly a living while doing it.

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Can't forget weight.Awhile back I equipped myself with a digital kitchen scale and it's come in handy on several occasions.

True!

 

Weight, too, is a factor.

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These were hand made by the Navajo jewelers in the Albuquerque area. They are each hand made and no two will be exactly the same. That is why I thought one was a casting, made from an original. For that reason the weight and measurements would not help much and because they are each hand made and the two photographed have the exact same depressions, striations, flaws this is obviously the same wing photographed/scanned by the original seller and then rephotographed/scanned by the buyer/reseller.

A very interesting education, thank you!

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