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beyond the farb


hbtcoveralls

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I heard stories about shortlived reenactors who got all excited about the 50th anniversary of D-Day. A lot of them went out and bought vintage boots, trousers, weapons, etc and then signed up for one of a dozen landing reenactments. As the stories went, they were quite surprised to find out what wading through the surf and wet sand did to their vintage boots and kit! A hard lesson apparently learned by many that should not have surprised anyone!
Yes, I saw plenty of folks doing just that in the summer of 1994. Plenty only did a D-Day event and a bulge one (which accounted for the massive townout at Indiantown Gap in 95) then went back to Civil War or whatever else was their main thing. I'd been into WW2 re-enacting in the late 80s and started doing events in 1991 (and had already jumped from a LCVP at new Orleans in 92) so I was ready for what to expect at the beach landing I did at Virginia Beach in 94. After we were done with the event I immediately hosed off my leggings and cartridge belt. Both were fine afterward but I never could get the same out of the belt no matter what I did to it. I sold it to a collector and cautioned him not to put M-1 clips into it.
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hbtcoveralls

I too started out in the late 80s and was active before the 50th. I remember that the toughest thing to get was boots. The originals were either odd sizes or just too worn out by this point. In fact it was common to go to a field event and see leather soles from a couple of pairs of boots in a mud hole. One buddy actually used to wear prison boots of the kind sold for convicts to wear and I admit they looked really good (except for the tread which I think was used to prevent escapes lol). There just weren't any repro boots. A place called "US Cavalry store" brought out a repro of the 43 boots, and they were a whole lot more re than pro but guys still bought them just to cut the tops off and wear them under leggings. All in all I think things today are a whole lot better. Guys getting in don't have the massive hurdle of finding all thier uniforms and I firmly believe that although I'm a dedicated collector, not all re-enactors are. Some just love the history.

When I went to Normandy though in 1999 along with a group of Americans in the vanguard of what became the 2nd Armored in Europe (now famous for the Armored convoy runs throughout Europe) I took only 2 repro items, my tanker jacket and my boots. In fact most of my gear was new, as in brand new unissued. I know I'll take some flack for it, but first it is my gear. second nothing I took was made in anything less than a batch of a million. and third I still have duplicate unissued examples of nearly everything I took.

Tom Bowers

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I agree, Tom. Now, you have amazing books and the internet and great established repro dealers. You can literally call a place like At The Front now and (if they have it in stock), get an entire impression ready to wear.

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I remember those days.. I started reenacting in the early 80's......

Keep in mind too, some of this stuff was so cheap years ago.. I bought NOS 2nd pattern jungle jackets at the local surplus store and wore them to pieces growing up.. I still find 3rd pattern NOS every now and then at the same place.. They had a display case 5X2X3 or so FULL of WW1 NOS pistol mag pouches for $1 each. They still have a cardboard box full I'm trying to get off them.. I recently got 14 M43 shovel covers and 20 1st aid pouches(mix of M24 and M-42 including the later dark OD ones) for around $2 each.. Most were very crisp and all but maybe 3 or 4 out of it all had readable dates.. At prices like those, why would I buy repop? Just my .02 MPC's

 

Fins.

 

I remember when collecting could be done on a budget. I read another long time collector talking about the days when you could take $150 to a show and come back with your arms full. Now you go to a show with $300 and you come back with six patches and a dog tag... if you are lucky and know how to bargain.

 

There was something about the late 1980's where a lot of cash started flowing into every collectors market ranging from art to furniture to Hummels. If you were collecting before then and sold any time afterwards, you made a killing. Younger collectors today look at some of the huge collections people put together in the past and just can't understand how anyone could afford to buy all that stuff. Simple...it cost 10% of what we are paying today!

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All,

 

I've been wondering about reenacting and living history. Having spent 27 years in a uniform, it isn't my thing. But, I'm curious what moviates folks to put in the time, money, and effort to do this. Most that I've seen seem really dedicated to "getting it right" and my hat is off to them, but I was wondering what the driving force behind it is. Also, I've always been curious about the vet to non-vet mix in this. Me, I'll just stay on the collecting side!

 

 

Although I'll admit, when stationed in the UK seeing a 250lb + 1SG in 82nd gear was pretty entertaining. He had a beard too, but according to the 1941 soldiers manual that was ok! LOL The invited a couple of we active duty types to this affair, and it took what little self-control I had not to want to PT the "large" guy to fail! LOL

 

John

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My uniforms and gear are a mixed bag... I have the M1937 shirt and pants and the M1942 airborne jump suit that are Repro... but my gear is nearly all GI issue... Most of my stuff isnt museum quality, and honestly, I'm looking at doing mostly historical displays anyway... what I was talking about is the living history reenactor who makes no effort whatsoever to obtain anything real and relies entirely on badly made repros... I've seen a few in my time on active duty...

 

Wayne

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All,

 

I've been wondering about reenacting and living history. Having spent 27 years in a uniform, it isn't my thing. But, I'm curious what moviates folks to put in the time, money, and effort to do this. Most that I've seen seem really dedicated to "getting it right" and my hat is off to them, but I was wondering what the driving force behind it is. Also, I've always been curious about the vet to non-vet mix in this. Me, I'll just stay on the collecting side!

Although I'll admit, when stationed in the UK seeing a 250lb + 1SG in 82nd gear was pretty entertaining. He had a beard too, but according to the 1941 soldiers manual that was ok! LOL The invited a couple of we active duty types to this affair, and it took what little self-control I had not to want to PT the "large" guy to fail! LOL

 

John

John, reenacting for me is honoring the heroes who were there. Mainly I do WWII 101st Airborne 506th (Able Co., NOT Easy), but the reason for this is there are a number of WWII 101st Vet's we associate with here in the Mi. area. We consult with them, throw BBQ's for them and transport them to/from various events in our area. I am proud to call a few of them personal friends of mine such as Fred Bahlou, Don Burgett, George Koskimaki to name a few, also as a bonus we have author Mark Bando living here in Mi. to keep us in check on the Farb level. (you should see HIS basement!WOW!!) The bottom line for myself at least is to educate the public, portray these fine gentleman as accurately as possible, and to honor them for their sacrifice.
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  • 2 weeks later...
I've been wondering about reenacting and living history. Having spent 27 years in a uniform, it isn't my thing. But, I'm curious what moviates folks to put in the time, money, and effort to do this. Most that I've seen seem really dedicated to "getting it right" and my hat is off to them, but I was wondering what the driving force behind it is.

 

 

Hello all,

 

i have the good fortune to know a few Vietnam era veterans, two in particular i see at the "SOS" in KY each year. Whilst chatting to one of them (who is a 4th infantry veteran) this year a re-enactor wandered by in full kit complete with a rucksack.

 

I asked what he thought of the hobby in general. He replied that "it doesn't bother me, i am still surprised people want the stuff, when i came home nobody wanted anything to do with it at all. Plus, i am amazed that people want to wear all that gear when they don't have to...i know i didn't at the time!"

 

That made me chuckle.

 

On a related note, i have seen so much mint, unissued, US WW2,Korea and Vietnam era webbing bought and destroyed by re-enactors that i could weep.

In their defence, it was probably due to the notion that the well would never run dry....

 

 

 

Patrick.

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Excellent read. As I'm just getting into a reenacting/honoring/airsofting genre, it's a lesson I'm still learning, so it's good to get this perspective right up front.

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NobleLoyalGSD
All,

 

I've been wondering about reenacting and living history. Having spent 27 years in a uniform, it isn't my thing. But, I'm curious what moviates folks to put in the time, money, and effort to do this. Most that I've seen seem really dedicated to "getting it right" and my hat is off to them, but I was wondering what the driving force behind it is. Also, I've always been curious about the vet to non-vet mix in this. Me, I'll just stay on the collecting side!

Although I'll admit, when stationed in the UK seeing a 250lb + 1SG in 82nd gear was pretty entertaining. He had a beard too, but according to the 1941 soldiers manual that was ok! LOL The invited a couple of we active duty types to this affair, and it took what little self-control I had not to want to PT the "large" guy to fail! LOL

 

John

 

 

(Moderator, above might be a good place to start a new thread)

 

I can only speak from my own experience of Vietnam re-enacting / living history over the past six years. All of it has been positive.

Having participated in many private re-enactments, and public displays and military history "timeline" events I can say that the response I've received and witnessed from Vietnam veterans has been overwhelmingly positive and quite rewarding.

 

At one public veteran's day display a former Viet vet army MP was so amazed to find that someone actually cared to remember the war and was portraying GIs that he spent the rest of the weekend with my group being very active in sharing his experience with anyone who meandered by. He later confessed that he had never talked so much about Vietnam since coming home. The following year he spent the entire day with us, bringing pictures of himself in-country.

 

At another public display, an SF vet, after seeing Vietnam being represented, went home and came back in complete badged, heavily starched and faded 2d pattern jungle uniform and green beret. Turns out he was a master sergeant or Sgt Major (my memory ain't so good) and also instructor at the recondo school. He spent an hour or so with our group answering questions and sharing his experiences.

 

Last year at a private tactical event for my primary re-enactment group, the 199th Light Infantry Brigade, we were honored to have a former infantry company commander who served in Vietnam with the 199th show up and "inspect" us. Apparently he had come across our web site and contacted the unit "commander" who invited him to see us in the field. He took the time to drive out and, as above, share his experiences and answer questions. When he left the site, he was driven out in a restored M151 jeep. As the jeep backed away, he gave us a very sincere military salute.

 

I cannot say that all Vietnam veterans would respond this way, but for many I believe they feel that it is finally time they got the recognition they so deserve. A re-enactor or living historian can honor them by being as sincere, thorough, accurate, and understanding of that era and its portrayal as absolutely possible.

 

 

~Jeff

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Reenacting for me is just another dumb hobby. I mainly just enjoy the camping aspect, the guns, and wearing the nerdy costumes. The occassional plus is when you get to meet the odd vet here or there. I've discussed with vets who think it's outlandish and disrespectful, other who dont care, and those that like the memories to be brought back.

 

Other than that, it's pretty much LARPing.

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Reenacting for me is just another dumb hobby. I mainly just enjoy the camping aspect, the guns, and wearing the nerdy costumes. The occassional plus is when you get to meet the odd vet here or there. I've discussed with vets who think it's outlandish and disrespectful, other who dont care, and those that like the memories to be brought back.

 

Other than that, it's pretty much LARPing.

I mainly do WWII airsofting, so it's very much tongue-in-cheek - we're there to have fun, after all. It's very nice to be able to chat with the german that had just shot you earlier that day.

I like wearing the costumes and handling the guns, as well as spending the time collecting and researching the different uniforms and so on. We don't have many vets over here, "only" resistance fighters who are also very nice to speak to, but they don't have the same relationship to the uniforms we wear as army vets do.

 

So in many ways, it's like LARPing, yes.

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I mainly do WWII airsofting, so it's very much tongue-in-cheek - we're there to have fun, after all.
Sadly, most air soft types where I am don't see it that way and they think of themselves as "re-enactors," which I have a tough time with, especially if you see what they think of as "authenticity." Air soft stuff here is like a flipping cult. You dare not call them out for their ludicrous inaccuracies and the 'videogame player" mentality many of them have. The local group knew I did living history as a hobby and had really good stuff but were pretty ticked when I told them they just weren't anywhere near my personal standard for authenticity and I'd rather just use real guns with blanks if I wanted to run around a WW2 event. I quickly soured over that entire hobby and now consider it a tremendous waste of time and money on my part and deeply regret ever getting involved in it. thumbdown.gif If re-enacting is a poor substitute for the reality, then air soft events are a proportionately poor comparison for re-enacting and therefore is a terrible representation of the reality.
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I have reenacted for almost 30 years. I did Civil War, Then Rev War and now War of 1812. My thoughts on reenacting are this:

1. Finding tailors who reconstruct modern reproduction clothing using original methods is almost impossible. I own a couple of Civil War original uniforms and the repro tailoring and construction do not begin to compare with originals. The machine stitching on originals is very small due to the type of early machines used. Original hand stitching is often of such small stitches it will make your eyes hurt.

2. Finding fabrics today that mimic original fabric is also almost impossible. Original frock coat fullered wool has a very tight nap and weave that has been shaved and is simply not reproduced today. I had an officers frock coat reproduced using fullered wool I bought from France that cost me $80.00/yard in 1984. The coat was supposedly tailored after an original coat in Michigan. My coat came in at almost $500.00. It was padded and quilted and almost looked like the original. When I examined it closer, I found two sided iron on tape was used inside the facings. It could only be seen by looking underneath the unhemmed skirt lining. The tops of the breast pockets were not properly corded like original uniforms often were and the skirt buttons were not attached through the fabric with cloth backing inserted through the shanks as is most often seen. I ended up hand stitching a War of 1812 uniform myself using an original pattern that had to be scaled up to fit my 6'-3" 210 lb. frame. I bought 8-yards of white twill tape from Fort Meigs made on an original loom. I used an old 1800's nurses cape lining to provide a decent red wool for the cuffs and collar, and a black wool for the coat body bought in Europe (17th US infantry issued black coats instead of blue). It has the proper inletted upper shoulder seam and tight sleeves of the original coats, but I admit that the lining details are not the same as originals. A hand stitched coat from start to finish would coat several thousand dollars.

Here is the picture of the hand stitched coat. Compare it to the others who are wearing mass produced coats: I am on the far left with the not so period mustache:

post-4312-1224772942.jpg

 

3. Even when everything is right, there needs to be research into what each unit wore. I see 17th US infantry plates on shakos and the individuals are wearing standard blue coats istead of black.

4. Camp life is often illustrated as if the soldiers carried an entire houshold with them.

5. In reenacting everyone deems himself an expert because he was told some truth by someone else who has been in longer. Most have never seen or handled original garments (at least in the 17th and 18th century fields).

6. I think as most of us know who are avid collectors of original items and have done so for a number of years, there are no absolutes. Wneh someone says it was never done this way etc. take it with a grain of salt. As long as there is adequate original primary source documentation, you can rest assured that someone looked like you.

7. Variation is good in reenacting, not bad.

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I've found that most people who say "use genuine issue only" for reenacting tend to be either (1) folks that started before "Saving Private Ryan" came out and drove the price of WW2 gear up, (2) reincarnations of Captain Sobel, or (3) collectors trying to keep the prices of gear up so that they can preserve their retirement investment. With suppliers like At The Front, What Price Glory, and WWII Impressions, there isn't much need to go genuine GI for reenacting nowadays.

 

My kit is almost entirely At The Front "paratrooper in a box" or What Price Glory tidbits except for the genuine USGI pistol belt, USGI canteen, TL-122D flashlight, Carlyle pouches, and first aid tins. My public battle helmet is post-war with Vietnam liner because my front-seam M1 with WW2 liner is used for static display. Everything else is repop for two reasons: (1) it is cheaper and in better condition and (2) once a war-dated item is torn up, it is gone forever and I just can't stand to think that I'm destroying history for a little weekend hobby.

 

Now, for Vietnam reenacting I use total USGI because (1) it's available, affordable, and authentic, and (2) nobody makes repro canvas gear (yet). I know repro boots and uniforms are coming out from Moore Militaria (for example), but for webgear the only stuff available is genuine issue. Who knows; in 15 years VN reenacting will be where WW2 reenacting was before SPR. And if MM starts selling quality repro VN webgear, my USGI stuff will go static display.

 

But hey, if you want to tear up $2k worth of antique equipment simply because you only paid $500 for it 10 years ago, that's your business.

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AMEN!

 

I cannont immagine reenacting with original Civil War stuff. My post above was to show that anyone can be critical of repro stuff, but it is designed to provide reasonable facimiles of originals at a reasonable cost. Why would someone want to go out in an original uniform that is not only rare but also irreplacable. An average original Civil War kit would cost as noted below:

1. Federal sack coat if one can be found to fit: $8,000.00+

2. original Federal forage cap: $5,000.00+

3. Original trousers: $12,000.00+

4. Brogans: $4,000.00+

5. Musket (interstingly enough, I used to reenact with an original 1861 sprinfield) $1,200.00+

6. Original cap box, belt, belt plate, cartridge box, sling etc: $3,000.00+

 

In all, you would have about $35,000.00 in a uniform and kit that would most likely fall apart after one event but no one would call you FARB! w00t.gif

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  • 3 weeks later...

Actually this is an interesting thread,

I have been in the hobby for a bit now and have seen multiple time periods and impressions out there.

The humorous stories are always the “knowledge experts”.

I guess these people are just not happy unless they one up you on something, I guess they are making up for shortcomings in their life.

You usually see them trolling the forums for unsuspecting victims to blast making themselves look better in their own eyes.

Most of us see this species as the “stich-nazi”, you know the one who just has to try and blast your impression by picking the smallest bit of fly poop out of pepper about the color or shade of khaki on your uniform.

 

I was once part of a display for the center for military history and was potraying of all people myself.

I was approached and corrected upon the uniform that I actually wore, go figure.

 

Most of the FARBY (Fu@#$%^ ain’t right buddy-Far be it from me) or Hokey, or just plain wrong, people fall into three groups;

1. Just don’t care

2. Don’t know

3. Don’t have the money

Two of these creatures can be helped out but the third is just plain scary.

 

My two cents is, if you don’t like the community or the participants at an event, do to their attitude or authenticity standards, just stop attending.

Vote with your feet or wallet.

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Is there a level of acceptable farb though? I started off in 1812, we with all do honesty (many will cry otherwise) have no idea what an American enlisted solder looks like.Records? you have sketches taken from a british spy as the best reference!

Than you have the modern era. A lot of original gear still exists. Most of us old salts first kits were nothing but. How many original 41 jackets have we trashed? My favorite is when you have a "holyer/ more authentic than thow khaki Nazi" tell me that my od #7 43dated canteen cover is inauthentic. Or that my original m-1c helmet is a bad repo (yes I still ware one out in the field, pray what else am I going to do with it?).

And it extends to weaponry, a topic very near and dear to me. They amuse me.... Let me get this strait, you want me to put a faulty safety and dreadful rear sigh onto a weapon that never had one since 44 to make you happy? And than you still have a blank adapter in it? What the hell?

There are a few truths that became self evident

 

1: we are not ww2 solders, only play one on weekends. NO painful shot series, no gi underwear, no short arms inspections, thank god.....

 

2: The depression generation was a lot smaller and thinner than most of us, accept it, you can not hide that glaring fact.

 

3: WW2 solders went through basic training, creates a mindset that is hard to replicate to those that have not been through something similar. There is only so much you can pick up through a book or by watching a mini series that will remain nameless for the 30th time.

 

4: By all means, because you read a book, you are not master of all things ww2! Big war, lots of things to learn. And keep learning. You can never know everything!

 

5: Filth, anyone who has been in a combat zone where you were told not to salute thumbsup.gif Knows that the dress and appearance regs are right out the window. Filth, wallow in it! STOP DRY CLEANING YOUR UNIFORMS AFTER EVERY EVENT!!! That is the biggest complaints from the vets, reenactors are way to clean.

 

6: cookie cutter bad! Unless you are portraying a basic training battalion, no two troops will look alike.

 

<steps off soap box> :lol:

 

Now I am going to find the guy that thinks early am pt at a reenactment is a good idea and piss in his coffee. Making a combat troop do pt, that's funny.....

 

 

My 23 cents worth.

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Douh...

 

computer posted my rant twice.... so sorry....

 

Hey when you find the guy, tell me because I'll add to his coffee as well.

 

The ones I like are the Junk on the bunk inspection types.

The only time I ever saw a complete layout in the field was TDY with the 13thDBLE, and those guys embrace the suck!

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I Know!

 

I did that in the real millitary, and got payed for it......

 

It still sucked than, what the #$%^ makes you think I want to play that basic training shite on my off time?

 

have a feeling that it pt idea was from one of these "I read a book and watched a mini series 30 times" types.....

 

:blink:

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With three pages of posts I'm not sure where to begin or what to address.

I think one can still buy on a budget,both original and decent repop,WW2 at least. My four American impressions,with both combat and dress uniforms (mostly originals and only sharing the boots and tie) cost me less then my CMP M-1 (less then $500) if you add in the German and Brit impressions (repops,minus guns)and the three spare Ike jackets(1 given to my cousin and 1 to my daughter)and a sleeping bag and 4 blankets and one duffel bag and a blank firing 1911 and you might equal the M-1.Being WW2 person size helps alot!I even wear size 9's (like everyone else).

Ruining original stuff reenacting? An old and wise man once told me that most original stuff being sold nowadays never even made it to the war let alone saw combat,it's value being that it was made back then,which should be less then the rare combat stuff,but yet we rever it as if it also saw duty in combat.For those that don't know it DoD has several large warehouses of the stuff for loaning to museums along with what already is in museum collections and private collections.The thing is why should I spend $40 on a repop wool shirt when my most expensive original cost me $12.I'd rather use repop,but economically it's not happening.

As to why reenact....for me it's alot of things,from honoring the vets on down to wanting to play the hero and educating people.

 

PT at a reenactment (shudder) I like staying in shape and all,but that's just crazy talk man!!!!

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If I knew that the hobby would have a derogatory word that is the 5/6ths of my last name I would have picked medieval or something :)

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  • 5 weeks later...

I've got one to add:

 

Spectafarb - Someone whose impression is spot on, except for the fact that he's wearing modern spectacles (eyeglasses)

 

I will admit that I am a spectafarb. It isn't that I cannot find period eyeglasses. I have a very nice pair that are in good enough shape to wear. The problem I have is finding someone that will put lenses in them. When I first got them, I took my prescription and went to ten different eyeglass places to see if any of them would put lenses into my glasses, and most told me that they would not, because they cannot warranty their work if the put lenses into vintage frames. Some said that they didn't work with vintage frames. Some don't take frames that don't come from their store. One place said they didn't know how to take them apart. I eventually found a place that would do it, and I had prescription lenses in them for about two years and after moving, I've not been able to find another place to put lenses in. So now I try to find regular eyeglasses that look "okay", but it's a sad substitute.

 

Living history events and displays = original gear

Running through the bush and jumping into shell holes, while shooting blanks at folks = repro gear

 

Too much quality repro gear is available to jusify using original stuff in my opinion. I think the idea of using as much original gear as possible comes from the days when good repro stuff was nowhere to be seen, and originals were the only option.

 

I would have to agree with this, except that there's a big issue if you're female: there isn't "too much quality repro gear" available for women. I don't know of anyone who makes women's khaki trousers or khaki shirts. The only things really available for females are wool shirts and skirts, Class A's, and HBTs. Not much in terms of footwear except dress shoes, either.

 

Of course, this isn't an issue for the average Joe reenactor discussed in this thread, but it is an issue for us female reenactors. I wear original khaki pants, original wool pants, etc. I have an original wool shirt on which the sleeves are too short for me, but it will do until one of the repro places finally stocks women's wool shirts again. I'm currently making (as in, by hand, having made my own pattern, using my original wool shirt as an example) a khaki shirt because nobody bloody makes them.

 

How about the Society of Creative Anachronism? It's a medieval reenactment group.

 

This is the first time I've heard the SCA described as "medieval reenactment". Considering the SCA is a combination of various time periods and uses fictional countries ("kingdoms"), can it even really be considered "reenactment"?

 

But, I'm curious what moviates folks to put in the time, money, and effort to do this.

 

I can't answer for others, but for me it is an interest in history and in seeing how things were done. I primarily like to do living history events and other educational (display type, although not necessarily encampments) events, and at those, it's interest in passing on things I've learned through my research, showing kids some of the original items, and talking about the time period, especially when I am doing an impression that isn't that common.

 

For example, I portray a WWII WAC veterinary technician and most people don't even know that there were female vet techs, especially since that's a time period during which most veterinary colleges either did not admit women or had just started admitting them. It's also a subject matter you don't hear a whole lot about in general. I love finding subjects like this that are not that commonly represented and then delve into researching them.

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This is the first time I've heard the SCA described as "medieval reenactment". Considering the SCA is a combination of various time periods and uses fictional countries ("kingdoms"), can it even really be considered "reenactment"?
No more so than cowboy shooters and I can say that as I am one of those as well as into WW2 display events (don't do the blanks in the woods thing, active duty showed me backwards that was).

I have had multiple run-ins with SCA folks at multiple timeframe events, hardly any of them good. My all time favorite was the "king" at Armed Forces Day at Ft lewis I think around 2003. He moved around in a motorized wheelchair and had the nerve to say that "I do it correctly"... think.gif

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