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M2 Helmet Lot Number


frankie
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Persian Gulf Command

There is a post just before this one "Tale of two M2 Helments. When I look at the photos of the bales, which are on the helmet in this post, they look as do the OP on the helmet in question here. If there is a difference a direct comparison my be useful.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/277592-a-tale-of-two-m-2-helmets/

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Why is this thread not pinned for reference?

 

We get a thread like this every few months asking about heat lot info, bail dimensions, and strap types.

 

This thread has everything you really need to know to identify a real M2.

 

If we pinned it, we could reference people to it who still need to learn rather than have the same debates every other month.

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Lucky 7th Armored

Ron,

 

I agree, I have been coming back here every few days to read the updates, and I have learned a lot!

 

Haydn

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I was able to hold this helmet in hand this weekend and must say the chinstraps, bar tacking and snaps look correct. If the OP could post the manufacture mark on the back of the snap, that would be a big help in clearing the originality of the straps. The overall age and wear of the helmet looks natural and not forced or contrived. The bails are bent back toward the rim which creates a different photographic effect than some of the original feet photos posted that have the bails bent in towards the liner. If I'm not mistaken, new old stock chinstaps are not long enough to create convincing airborne chinstraps. I also saw the estate sale price tag, so the buyer is not out anything, whatever the final verdict is. If I was at the estate sale, I would have bought it in a heartbeat and not thought twice about it. The elongated foot gives me some heartburn, but the main issue for me is the heat stamp number. That will be a tough obstacle to overcome without some new manufacturing information coming to light.

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ut the main issue for me is the heat stamp number. That will be a tough obstacle to overcome without some new manufacturing information coming to light.

 

post-270-0-90225000-1478615849_thumb.jpg

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attachicon.gifm2.jpg

 

There ya go, everyone wants period documentation or photo's. In this case, we have now period documentation and documentation is king.

 

aef1917 drops the mic and walks off stage. ;)

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I have been following this thread for the past few days and I must say this helmet has me stumped. I would agree that the left foot of the D-loop does not look like known originals. The lot number is strange, however to say that the lot number disqualifies the helmet from being an authentic M2 might be a little too 'absolute'. The lot number of 660 is odd in itself, because it lacks a letter suffix - or does it? Everyone in this thread so far has been viewing it as 6-6-0 (number), but could it be that the lot number is actually 6-6-O (letter)? That would date the helmet's production to around January-February 1942. This falls within the possibilities of M2 production, which was contracted in January 1942. With such an early M2, I would expect to see the flaws and irregularities that are present on this helmet. All I am saying, if you solely base your decision on the helmet's authenticity by reading the lot number as 6-6-0 (number), you are basing your decision on an inherently flawed lot number due to its lacking of a letter suffix and could therefore be produced much earlier than expected.

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The lot number of 660 is odd in itself, because it lacks a letter suffix - or does it? Everyone in this thread so far has been viewing it as 6-6-0 (number), but could it be that the lot number is actually 6-6-O (letter)? That would date the helmet's production to around January-February 1942. This falls within the possibilities of M2 production, which was contracted in January 1942....

 

....All I am saying, if you solely base your decision on the helmet's authenticity by reading the lot number as 6-6-0 (number), you are basing your decision on an inherently flawed lot number due to its lacking of a letter suffix and could therefore be produced much earlier than expected.

I thought it had already been discussed but, it is believed that the letter suffix list never went as far as: "O"

 

Does anyone have a McCord with a letter O suffix? How does it compare with this one?

I don't have it on any of mine. as a matter of fact, I was surprised that none of mine went further than a "G" "K". Of course this in not in any way scientific since my fixed loop M-1 helmets only account for a small number.

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I do not recall ever having seen a letter "O" suffix even on post war helmet shells.

I do have a letter "N" of WWII period manufacture which is at least close enough to assume a "O" suffix is at least possible.

 

By obseration the font case used for the letter "C" suffix by McCord looks like the number zero "0" with a cut out to the right making it a letter "C".

Following this logic would lead one to assume the letter "O", if in fact it does exist, would likely be the same in appearance as the number zero.

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I do not recall ever having seen a letter "O" suffix even on post war helmet shells.

I do have a letter "N" of WWII period manufacture which is at least close enough to assume a "O" suffix is at least possible.

 

By obseration the font case used for the letter "C" suffix by McCord looks like the number zero "0" with a cut out to the right making it a letter "C".

Following this logic would lead one to assume the letter "O", if in fact it does exist, would likely be the same in appearance as the number zero.

 

Have any pics of the N suffix? I've never seen anything nearly that high.

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Here you go.

Front seam hinged chinstrap loops, OD#7 straps with OD#3 stitching

(note: hinged loops appear to be replacement over broken fixed loops)

post-107763-0-83891500-1478736081.jpg

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In WWI, the Ordnance Department didn't use the letter I to indicate the company that pressed a helmet, probably to avoid confusion with the number 1. You'd think they'd be cognizant of the possibility of confusing a 0 with an O as well.

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Interesting thread. I'd say given the low price (I assume), the fact that it came straight from the family of a paratrooper killed in 1945, and the fact that there were 50,000 of these helmets made in a hurry during wartime, I don't think you could convince a jury that this is fake because the experts say all 50,000 had exactly the same crimped feet on the loops after examining a dozen or two surviving originals. Just my 2 cents.

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Interesting thread. I'd say given the low price (I assume), the fact that it came straight from the family of a paratrooper killed in 1945, and the fact that there were 50,000 of these helmets made in a hurry during wartime, I don't think you could convince a jury that this is fake because the experts say all 50,000 had exactly the same crimped feet on the loops after examining a dozen or two surviving originals. Just my 2 cents.

 

There have been more than a dozen or two examined by those "experts" as you call them Matt. *Please note my signature line below and realize that the reason this discussion has gone on and been so interesting is because we are students studying this. Some of the guys posting here have seen much more than a dozen or two D-loops, myself included. What is trying to be determined here deals with dates and times and previously known information. Snarky "expert" remarks directed at a few guys who do know a few things and have been studying these for years and have been trying to understand this, helps us learn nothing.

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Agreed

 

This helmet may put a "crimp" in the whole number scenario chart thing.Possible may change a lot of the published information and or accepted thought.

 

Im one that would like to see records or documents detailing what batch number or heat lot number from the manufacturer showing how many helmets were produced per batch or per day under said number.Were ther 500 helmets in a run, a thousand? How many M2s or Fix bail M1s are out there with identical or sequential numbers?

 

Using the figure of the 50,0000 above how many M2s were in each said lot? Again were the numbers changed daily? Weekly? Monthly? or changed after a certain number produced to use as a control number for batch or quality.I have worked in an occupation of metal stamping, punch presses, fabrication and saw daily how things were made and the various differences and defects that occur due to a set jig being loose or bolt or pinnholding something becomes wore or broken.Tolerances varied and every so many pieces the operator was to check measurements or other settings.If not way off the board it went through.This was a daily practice and we weren't making items due to filling a war time contract or get items out as they were needed for war.I dont see where there wouldn't be some variation in the same process of making helmets as nothing is going to be perfectly the same on thousands upon thousands of items especially during a war time crunch.Plus people are people.Its no different then as it is now.There are days when the product and quality control is better than others.Plus today we have more technology and computor controlled equipment leaving less of a possibility for variations when in WW2 there was more hand done labor.I spoke to a person at the Boyt factory in person.He told me on the holsters the sewing or stitching on the holster bodies were all hand done.Im assuming many of the rifle scares of leather were as well.Can you imagine the amount of hand labor that this entailed during war production?

 

I agree with BBmilitaria as well.There would be no way I would have left the helmet there for the price it was sold for as well as there being tangible other items and family that was selling the items.Yes the saying is buy the item not the story but in many cases the story is the item.

 

Im not a helmet expert and I dont even own an M2 but this one I wouldnt have left set at triple the sellers price.

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Not snarky at all, apologies if it came across that way. I'm saying, from my legal background, that the sampling size is too small to make claims about the entire population of helmets. Political pollsters learned that this week. You guys know a lot more about M2 helmets than I do, but if called to the stand, I think saying ALL helmets look this way or ALL helmets have this lot number would be hard to prove without more evidence than I have seen here.

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The "tyranny of numbers" comes to mind from statistics class. If there were 500 original M2s sitting on tables and each one was carefully examined and documented, someone could honestly say they have seen 500 original M2s, but you've still only looked at 1% of the population. That's all I was trying to say.

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Matt

 

Totally agree with you on all you stated.All very good and sound points and adds greatly to the discussion.

 

I was thinking the same and even going to ask how may of the M1s can be shown with the same number stamp?

There are collectors who have dozens or even several hundred helmets that span the life of the M1 and how many have the exact same number or a sequential number series. I know hand gun collectors or rifle collectors especially those who bought the Winchester commemoratives back in the sixties and seventies that would get two three or four matching number sets these were all serial numbered sequentially one right after the other do to production. I know helmets are not the same as a serial numbered firearm but it would be fun to see if there are helmets out there that have the same number or how many have the same number identically and with the amount of production there surely has to be some out there going on the theory that these are back or lot or heat numbers. I really agree that 50000 helmets that there should be some form of a base of similarity as far as numbers but as you said and I agree it seems like it is a small sample to pick from. Plus is that figure of 50,000 helmets the number that were produced or the number that were turned in? We have all seen over the years collecting where things are not supposed to exist because the items were turned in or destroyed or production cancelled but the item exists.The Peterson device for the 03 Springfield rifle comes to mind.People have stated no full rifles or conversions exist as it was a failed program and scrapped but there are examples known and I think one is coming up for auction.

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Matt

 

Appreciate your posts and insights.

 

Often I don't come across real clear with what I want to stay and at times posting from my phone doesn't help either... LOL

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