firefighter Posted September 26, 2016 Share #1 Posted September 26, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #2 Posted September 26, 2016 Thats quite a suit. Seen it one other time great to see it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #3 Posted September 26, 2016 Thanks for sharing this as it is difficult for collectors to determine which Son Tay Raider patch is considered original as it is my understanding that there were so many variations produced in different countries. Photos of an original party suit belonging to someone who participated in the raid helps us compare insignia that are on other party suits that have surfaced in private collections . My understanding is that after the first batch were made in Thailand those that participated but didn't receive a patch had copies made for themselves in places like Vietnam, Japan, the Philippines and even in Hawaii. If this is true it makes it really difficult to determine which patch is considered original. I believe that same thing happened to the unofficial Son Tay raid circular mushroom patch pictured below the Son Tay Raider patch. I have seen many variations of this patch as well however I have yet to find an example of the one picture in a book written about the raid. I did find Maj. Jay M. Strayer listed as part of the assault force flying a HH-53 on a roster of those that participated in the Son Tay Raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #4 Posted September 26, 2016 Thanks for sharing this as it is difficult for collectors to determine which Son Tay Raider patch is considered original as it is my understanding that there were so many variations produced in different countries. Photos of an original party suit belonging to someone who participated in the raid helps us compare insignia that are on other party suits that have surfaced in private collections . My understanding is that after the first batch were made in Thailand those that participated but didn't receive a patch had copies made for themselves in places like Vietnam, Japan, the Philippines and even in Hawaii. If this is true it makes it really difficult to determine which patch is considered original. I believe that same thing happened to the unofficial Son Tay raid circular mushroom patch pictured below the Son Tay Raider patch. I have seen many variations of this patch as well however I have yet to find an example of the one picture in a book written about the raid. I did find Maj. Jay M. Strayer listed as part of the assault force flying a HH-53 on a roster of those that participated in the Son Tay Raid. The Bounce patch was made and designed after the Raid. The Mushroom patch was mentioned in the book "The RAID" as I recall and a few were made prior to the mission hence the KITD.. Kept In The Dark/Fed On Horse Sh-it due to the little information allowed to be known or shared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #5 Posted September 26, 2016 THis is from an actual Raider.All were his.Original 503 PIR in WW2(this is a combat patch he wore in the 60s and 70s) then trained and became an Alamo Scout.No less than 6 trips back and fourth to recon the Cabanatuan Camp before the great RAID.He was part of the team to leed the Rangers there as well.Have been told he designed or help design the patch after the Raid.When he gave this to me I thought it was a reunion piece then we talked.Many dont know the SF men were also given the Red River Rats patch at a ceremony in 1972/1974 and made members of the group as The Son Tay Raiders had crossed the Red River going into North Viet Nam.I have seen the certificate and the photos when they were at the ceremoney and banquet There are variationslOne of two accepted variations I know of.One has a red twill backround(own one of those too) opposed to the full red embroidered.I have also seen a vietnamese made hand embroidered version and there is one on the back of ASMIC.Speculation Raiders had these made as "spares" but also its possible oatch collectors who had seen these and could have them made did so as well that had in country tailor shop connections.I dont know a lot of Raiders but I havent seen one in hand of a Raider that was Viet made.Not saying it wouldnt be possible but I just never seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fender Rhodes Posted September 26, 2016 Share #6 Posted September 26, 2016 doyler, Are those Pappy Kittleson's items? R/ FR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted September 26, 2016 Thank you guys for the information. What else is interesting on the party suit is the ARRS & 40th ARRS patches appear to be U.S. made.I also like the piece of barbed wire.Who would have thought to save that in all that confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share #8 Posted September 26, 2016 doyler, Are those Pappy Kittleson's items? R/ FR JAY STRAYER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #9 Posted September 26, 2016 doyler, Are those Pappy Kittleson's items? R/ FR Yes sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #10 Posted September 26, 2016 THis is from an actual Raider.All were his.Original 503 PIR in WW2(this is a combat patch he wore in the 60s and 70s) then trained and became an Alamo Scout.No less than 6 trips back and fourth to recon the Cabanatuan Camp before the great RAID.He was part of the team to leed the Rangers there as well.Have been told he designed or help design the patch after the Raid.When he gave this to me I thought it was a reunion piece then we talked.Many dont know the SF men were also given the Red River Rats patch at a ceremony in 1972/1974 and made members of the group as The Son Tay Raiders had crossed the Red River going into North Viet Nam.I have seen the certificate and the photos when they were at the ceremoney and banquet There are variationslOne of two accepted variations I know of.One has a red twill backround(own one of those too) opposed to the full red embroidered.I have also seen a vietnamese made hand embroidered version and there is one on the back of ASMIC.Speculation Raiders had these made as "spares" but also its possible oatch collectors who had seen these and could have them made did so as well that had in country tailor shop connections.I dont know a lot of Raiders but I havent seen one in hand of a Raider that was Viet made.Not saying it wouldnt be possible but I just never seen it. Thanks for sharing your collection with us and information concerning which variations of this patch are considered original . Your Son Tay Raider patch looks like an exact match to the one on the party suit. Is the patch below the red twill variation you spoke of? Unfortunately I don't have a photo of the back of this patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #11 Posted September 26, 2016 You mentioned that the SVN made pieces are questionable due to the fact that none have appeared in the hands of veterans of this raid. There are two SVN made Son Tay Raider patches that I have come across. One hand embroidered and the other machine embroidered. Could these have been made for collectors in SVN during the war but never worn by those that participated in the raid? Hand Embroidered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #12 Posted September 26, 2016 SVN Machine Embroidered. I haven't tried to buy one of these patches for my collection because I wasn't sure what was real and what was considered a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #13 Posted September 26, 2016 Thanks for sharing your collection with us and information concerning which variations of this patch are considered original . Your Son Tay Raider patch looks like an exact match to the one on the party suit. Is the patch below the red twill variation you spoke of? Unfortunately I don't have a photo of the back of this patch. That looks like the twill version. Bob has some good info on the patches too. The viet one is like the ones I have encountered.Period done but in my thinking done for collecting/collectors. As we have seen its typical when patches are made there are more made for resale in the shops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #14 Posted September 26, 2016 Im not a big fan of the machine embroidered one.Just my thoughts. There was a example sold here on the forum that was stated as Japanese made.I havent had one of that example either.I recall it had more red threads on the reverse.Maybe the new owner will post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #15 Posted September 26, 2016 Im not a big fan of the machine embroidered one.Just my thoughts. There was a example sold here on the forum that was stated as Japanese made.I havent had one of that example either.I recall it had more red threads on the reverse.Maybe the new owner will post it. I just so happen to have kept photographs of the Japanese made piece with rear red catch threads. This one is questionable as well correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonomachi Posted September 26, 2016 Share #16 Posted September 26, 2016 Back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted September 26, 2016 Author Share #17 Posted September 26, 2016 Yes sir. Sorry. I thought the original post not your group, which is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted September 26, 2016 Share #18 Posted September 26, 2016 I just so happen to have kept photographs of the Japanese made piece with rear red catch threads. This one is questionable as well correct? I cant give a definate answer as Im not familiar with this type Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now