rustywings Posted September 9, 2016 Share #26 Posted September 9, 2016 Hey Salvage Sailor, I wish we could identify some of these guys for you as a "thank you" for all of your efforts in providing us with the terrific individual images! Your yard-long photograph is absolutely chuck-full of wings, collar insignia and uniform variations! Thanks for sharing this great photograph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #27 Posted March 18, 2020 Some group scans starting from the left side - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #28 Posted March 18, 2020 Group scan - B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #29 Posted March 18, 2020 Group scan - C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #30 Posted March 18, 2020 Group scan - D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #31 Posted March 18, 2020 Group scan - E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 18, 2020 Author Share #32 Posted March 18, 2020 Group scan - F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted March 21, 2020 Share #33 Posted March 21, 2020 That is a wonderful group photo from a bygone era, and thank you for adding the enlarged images of the officers. Great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share #34 Posted March 22, 2020 Pilot No. 5 - The future Lt General Thomas S. Moorman Sr.? He earned his pilot wings in October 1934 and was assigned to the 4th Observation Squadron, 5th Composite Group at Luke Field, Hawaii until July 1936 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZPhil Posted March 22, 2020 Share #35 Posted March 22, 2020 Great photograph. You did an excellent job of the close up shot's. I noticed a lot of these Gent's are sporting bullion insignia. Was that common back in the 30's? Semper Fi Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share #36 Posted March 22, 2020 Absolutely, as shown in this mix of bullion 1920's and 1930's insignia and the wide pallet of brown & khaki uniforms. Officers having to be responsible for their own uniforms during the height of the great depression clearly made them last within a wider interpretation of the regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZPhil Posted March 23, 2020 Share #37 Posted March 23, 2020 Thank you for the reply. I recently picked up a Sam Brown belt and want to add it to a uniform. You show an excellent example of that in wear with these photo's. Semper Fi Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted May 9, 2021 Author Share #38 Posted May 9, 2021 Bump for fresh eyes - Anyone recognize these early Aviators and future WWII Air Force leaders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted September 19, 2022 Author Share #39 Posted September 19, 2022 5th Composite Group, Luke Field, T.H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppylu2 Posted September 19, 2022 Share #40 Posted September 19, 2022 Great post, as always. Thanks. Is that a Hawaiian Department patch, do you think? What year would you date the portrait? Mahalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted September 19, 2022 Author Share #41 Posted September 19, 2022 Yes, Hawaiian Department. 5th Composite Group Luke Field (Ford Island), T.H. circa 1935 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppylu2 Posted September 19, 2022 Share #42 Posted September 19, 2022 That's interesting about the Hawaiian Dept patch being so widely used. I'm trying to get a handle on whether/when the pinwheel patch was worn there, if at all, around 1941 and whether a generic AAC DI existed, and if there was such a DI, whether it was worn by officers on shirt or blouse epaulettes. There's an apparent split in postings around this site, regarding shoulder patches; their use on blouses but not shirts, and whether sewn on or snapped on. Mahalo plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted September 19, 2022 Author Share #43 Posted September 19, 2022 I'd say no, the Pinwheel patch wasn't worn by the Hawaiian Air Force units prior to 1940-1941 when the squadrons moved to newly built Hickam Air Force Base. Same holds true for a generic AAC DI in Hawaii 1920-1940. I'll never say never and a photo may pop up causing me to revisit this conclusion. Same goes for patched shirts on Oahu during the Hawaiian Division years, rarely if ever seen, as the patches were worn on the service coats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppylu2 Posted September 19, 2022 Share #44 Posted September 19, 2022 Would you say that a Hawaiian Dept DI would be worn by any one, on any shirt or service coat? Or did they not exist in 1941? Mahalo nui loa for your thoughts and replies. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted September 20, 2022 Share #45 Posted September 20, 2022 Are we talking about the "rare" unauthorized oversized patch type Hawaiian Department DI made by N.S. Meyers with early incised hallmark found (to the best of my knowledge) in screw back fastener, vaulted by design, and thought to only be worn on campaign hat by the few lucky privileged to do so (just as in the case of equally rare P.I. Div patch type Distinctive Insignia) worn during the late 20's early 30's? If so, the answer to your question is likely no. From a Heraldric stand point the Hawaiian Department would be considered a non-color bearing entity and technically entitled to a "badge" and typically its origins can be traced back to days of chivalry, etc... Problem with the Hawaiian Department is that it was organized in 1913 of which it had no Heraldry to trace. The octagon shape was representative of the eight major islands of the Hawaii Island chain and the red and yellow colors represent the old Hawaiian Royal colors. Not much historical significance here. I would assume the Heraldry Department shut down Hawaiian Department's attempt to get their badge approved and authorized due to it lack of Heraldry to begin with! What small hand full of these rare Hawaiian Departments "Badges" that are circulating out therevin collections are actually samples made by the Hawaiian Department pending approval which never happened. Again, it is unlikely such an metal insignia would had been worn in 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted September 20, 2022 Author Share #46 Posted September 20, 2022 Aye, What John said above..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppylu2 Posted September 20, 2022 Share #47 Posted September 20, 2022 Thanks for the details. To summarize, then, the costumer or wardrobe designer, who overrode the Army's technical advisor (who also might not have known), decided to put the HD patch on the khaki shirts in Here to Eternity. Which is wrong. If I extrapolate correctly, officers wouldn't have worn the HD patch on the mustard wool shirt in 1941 either. And we can assume that these ebay prong-back pins, made in China and/or Pakistan, don't represent or replicate any Hwn Dept DI that ever existed. And there was no Di for officers to wear on their campaign caps. Mahalo, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted September 21, 2022 Share #48 Posted September 21, 2022 This topic of Hollywood's use of the Hawaiian Department in the movie was thoroughly covered in the link below. The reproduction of the Hawaiian Department patch type "badge" is a far cry from the actual examples made. The red shield was of transparent red enamel upon a vaulted octagon with superimposed "Lazy H". They do exist and were likely worn at the infancy of Distinctive Insignia usage and when the rules of heraldry was fluid and still in flux. A prime example of such is the posting the two 5th Composite Group DIs above by S. Sailor to set the topic back on its rails. Of the two the one illustrated on the bottom (period photo of the 1st type) was very large in size, was rescended and replaced by the smaller distinctive above it a short year (1923) later. (Images of the two insignia are posted below as well for reference). However, the staying power of the sharper, larger and more distinctive Insignia was worn until it was no longer tolerated. So going back to your question on the Hawaiian Department metal insignia. Yes, they do exist and were forged by N.S. Meyers. They were unauthorized, likely worn on campaign hat due to their physical size and the fact they are vaulted but only for a very limited time frame circa. 1923-25. When I get a chance I'll get some images of these larger sized insignia posted here... A Hui Hou, John https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25457-hawaiian-department/&do=findComment&comment=183270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppylu2 Posted September 21, 2022 Share #49 Posted September 21, 2022 Mahalo nui loa for the link to that old post. I don't think I would have come across that. All of these posts answer have answered my questions. Much appreciated, one and all. Aloha John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaiokalewa Posted September 21, 2022 Share #50 Posted September 21, 2022 Here's the rare bird that I speak of. Two corrections on my behalf the insignia was made by Gemsco and the Lazy H is not superimposed as I stated earlier. I hadn't looked at this insignia years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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