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Pineapple Air Force Pilot Wings Luke Field (Ford Island) 5th Composite Group 1930's


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Hey Salvage Sailor, I wish we could identify some of these guys for you as a "thank you" for all of your efforts in providing us with the terrific individual images! Your yard-long photograph is absolutely chuck-full of wings, collar insignia and uniform variations! Thanks for sharing this great photograph!

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  • 3 years later...

That is a wonderful group photo from a bygone era, and thank you for adding the enlarged images of the officers.

 

Great job!

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Salvage Sailor

Pilot No. 5 - The future Lt General Thomas S. Moorman Sr.? He earned his pilot wings in October 1934 and was assigned to the 4th Observation Squadron, 5th Composite Group at Luke Field, Hawaii until July 1936

 

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005 Thomas S. Moorman Sr 001.jpg

 

005 Thomas S. Moorman Sr 002.jpg

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Great photograph.

You did an excellent job of the close up shot's.

I noticed a lot of these Gent's are sporting bullion insignia.

Was that common back in the 30's?

 

Semper Fi

Phil

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Salvage Sailor

Absolutely, as shown in this mix of bullion 1920's and 1930's insignia and the wide pallet of brown & khaki uniforms. Officers having to be responsible for their own uniforms during the height of the great depression clearly made them last within a wider interpretation of the regulations.

Luke Field TH 001.jpg

Luke Field TH 002.jpg

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Thank you for the reply. I recently picked up a Sam Brown belt and want to add it to a uniform.

You show an excellent example of that in wear with these photo's.

 

Semper Fi

Phil

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  • 1 year later...
Salvage Sailor

Bump for fresh eyes - Anyone recognize these early Aviators and future WWII Air Force leaders?

 

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  • 1 year later...
Salvage Sailor

Yes, Hawaiian Department. 5th Composite Group Luke Field (Ford Island), T.H. circa 1935

 

202485684_HawaiianDepartment003.jpg.a4291dd1b422f7eaf895de0e49fb6ff2.jpg

 

1073772604_5thCompositeGroup001.jpg.1479cdde11ee38c0147a11ff242a37f3.jpg

 

185476503_5thCompositeGroup001.jpg.1aaa2ac1d370a997890570ad005aa5bc.jpg

 

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That's interesting about the Hawaiian Dept patch being so widely used.

I'm trying to get a handle on whether/when the pinwheel patch was worn there, if at all, around 1941 and whether a generic AAC DI existed, and if there was such a DI, whether it was worn by officers on shirt or blouse epaulettes.

There's an apparent split in postings around this site, regarding shoulder patches; their use on blouses but not shirts, and whether sewn on or snapped on.

Mahalo plenty.

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Salvage Sailor

I'd say no, the Pinwheel patch wasn't worn by the Hawaiian Air Force units prior to 1940-1941 when the squadrons moved to newly built Hickam Air Force Base.  Same holds true for a generic AAC DI in Hawaii 1920-1940.  I'll never say never and a photo may pop up causing me to revisit this conclusion.

 

Same goes for patched shirts on Oahu during the Hawaiian Division years, rarely if ever seen, as the patches were worn on the service coats.

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Would you say that a Hawaiian Dept DI would be worn by any one, on any shirt or service coat? Or did they not exist in 1941?

Mahalo nui loa for your thoughts and replies.

John

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Are we talking about the "rare" unauthorized oversized patch type Hawaiian Department DI made by N.S. Meyers with early incised hallmark found (to the best of my knowledge) in screw back fastener, vaulted by design, and thought to only be worn on campaign hat by the few lucky privileged to do so (just as in the case of equally rare P.I. Div patch type Distinctive Insignia) worn during the late 20's early 30's?  If so, the answer to your question is likely no.   

 

From a Heraldric stand point the Hawaiian Department would be considered a non-color bearing entity and technically entitled to  a "badge" and typically its origins can be traced back to days of chivalry, etc... Problem with the Hawaiian Department is that it was organized in 1913 of which it had no Heraldry to trace. 

 

The octagon shape was representative of the eight major islands of the Hawaii Island chain and the red and yellow colors represent the old Hawaiian Royal colors. Not much historical significance here.

 

I would assume the Heraldry Department shut down Hawaiian Department's attempt to get their badge approved and authorized due to it lack of Heraldry to begin with!  What small hand full of these rare Hawaiian Departments "Badges" that are circulating out therevin collections are actually samples made by the Hawaiian Department pending approval which never happened.

 

Again, it is unlikely such an metal insignia would had been worn in 1941.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the details.

To summarize, then, the costumer or wardrobe designer, who overrode the Army's technical advisor (who also might not have known), decided to put the HD patch on the khaki shirts in Here to Eternity. Which is wrong.

If I extrapolate correctly, officers wouldn't have worn the HD patch on the mustard wool shirt in 1941 either.

And we can assume that these ebay prong-back pins, made in China and/or Pakistan, don't represent or replicate any Hwn Dept DI that ever existed. And there was no Di for officers to wear on their campaign caps.

Mahalo,

John

 

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This topic of Hollywood's use of the Hawaiian Department in the movie was thoroughly covered in the link below.

 

The reproduction of the Hawaiian Department patch type "badge" is a far cry from the actual examples made.  The red shield was of transparent red enamel upon a vaulted octagon with superimposed "Lazy H".  They do exist and were likely worn at the infancy of Distinctive Insignia usage and when the rules of heraldry was fluid and still in flux.   

 

A prime example of such is the posting the two 5th Composite Group DIs above by S. Sailor to set the topic back on its rails.  

Of the two the one illustrated on the bottom (period photo of the 1st type) was very large in size, was rescended and replaced by the smaller distinctive above it a short year (1923) later.   (Images of the two insignia are posted below as well for reference).

 

However, the staying power of the sharper, larger and more distinctive Insignia was worn until it was no longer tolerated.  

 

So going back to your question on the Hawaiian Department metal insignia.  Yes, they do exist and were forged by N.S. Meyers.  They were unauthorized, likely worn on campaign hat due to their physical size and the fact they are vaulted but only for a very limited time frame circa. 1923-25.  

 

When I get a chance I'll get some images of these larger sized insignia posted here...

 

A Hui Hou,

 

John

 

 

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25457-hawaiian-department/&do=findComment&comment=183270

 

 

Screenshot_20220920-192136_Chrome.jpg

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Mahalo nui loa for the link to that old post. I don't think I would have come across that.

All of these posts answer have answered my questions.

Much appreciated, one and all.

Aloha

John

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Here's the rare bird that I speak of.  Two corrections on my behalf the insignia was made by Gemsco and the Lazy H is not superimposed as I stated earlier.  I hadn't looked at this insignia  years.  

Screenshot_20220920-231503_Messages.jpg

Screenshot_20220920-231523_Messages.jpg

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