Spec 8 fatique shirt

[Martinjmpr]

Also as far as the article that Patches posted, did anyone notice this tidbit towards the end?

 

"Of the 3.815 individuals in the grade E-9 as of 31 August 1964, there were 1,374 in traditional Sergeant Major positions."

 

What positions would the other 2,441 have been in? Any ideas?

[e19]

We're SF SGMs positions considered "traditional", as there were 4 or 5 in every SF Company?

[Martinjmpr]

We're SF SGMs positions considered "traditional", as there were 4 or 5 in every SF Company?

 

Wondering that too. Did you mean 4 or 5 in every battalion? IIRC each line company had a SGM and of course there was a CSM at battalion level which would mean 4 x E-9s in each SF battalion. Support company (where I worked) always had a 1SG.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Of course my time was long, long after this. I don't know what the TO&E of SF units was in the early 1960s.

[e19]

 

Wondering that too. Did you mean 4 or 5 in every battalion? IIRC each line company had a SGM and of course there was a CSM at battalion level which would mean 4 x E-9s in each SF battalion. Support company (where I worked) always had a 1SG.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Of course my time was long, long after this. I don't know what the TO&E of SF units was in the early 1960s.

Nope, there were no battalions back then...line companies had 4 to 5 SGMs'. C-Det had 1 and so did each B-Det. I don't recall if there was one in the Admin Det or not.

[Justin B.]

The article is full of matters that never quite came to be. True on the PFC vs. Lance Corporal. I think the new PFC rank (one stripe and one rocker) was first worn in May 1968. Same with the new Command Sergeant Major rank (referred to simply as Sergeant Major in the article). I have a newspaper article from May 1968 showing the sergeants major of the 101st Airborne being presented with their new CSM stripes. It is odd though that the changes mentioned in the article took three years to actually implement.

 

On the other hand, the article indicates that the new E-9 rank with wreath around the star will simply be Sergeant Major and the existing E-9 rank (three stripes and three rockers with a star in the center) would become Chief Master Sergeant. As far as I know this never happened and the rank simply became Sergeant Major. I have seen some references to the effect that the rank was also referred to as Staff Sergeant Major but I have never seen an actual example of this in practice such as orders.

William Emerson mentioned that in one of his Chevrons books. The bulletin had jumped the gun, and the new grades/stripes never got the final approval for whatever reason.

 

When E-9 came out there was some controversy as to what to call it. Sergeant major was a traditional top grade before 1920, but it was also a job title for top unit NCOs. At some point it was proposed to split E-9 so unit sergeants major would have that grade title, and everyone else would be a chief master sergeant. When that wasn't approved, they later became command sergeant major and sergeant major.

 

I have read somewhere that lance corporal was't ultimately adopted because most soldiers would become spec 4, not corporal, but I can't remember where. In 1968 of course it did become PFC and E-2 privates got to put on a stripe.

 

Also, the bulletin points out that they were coming to the end of the transition period where people were allowed to wear their higher pre-1959 stripes, which must have been interesting.

 

 

Also as far as the article that Patches posted, did anyone notice this tidbit towards the end?

 

"Of the 3.815 individuals in the grade E-9 as of 31 August 1964, there were 1,374 in traditional Sergeant Major positions."

 

What positions would the other 2,441 have been in? Any ideas?

By "traditional" I believe they meant the position, one per regiment, brigade etc.

[patches]

BUMP

[Martinjmpr]

I'm sure others will search, but I only find one veteran from that time frame with that last name, Jerry W. who died in 2007.

DELASHMET, JERRY W

SP3 US ARMY

DATE OF BIRTH: 11/01/1941

DATE OF DEATH: 02/23/2007

BURIED AT:

NAPLES MEMORIAL GARDENS

525 111TH AVE NORTH NAPLES, FL 34108

(239) 597-3101

 

Also: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Delashmet&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSob=n&GRid=18093742&

 

I have a question about this: The rank of "SP3."

 

I know in the WWII and post WWII Army, the ranks were numbered in the reverse order that they are now. (IOW Currently, E-1 is the lowest enlisted grade and E-9 is the highest.) Under the 7-grade system for enlisted ranks that existed prior to the introduction of the "supergrades" in 1958, a Grade 1 would have been the highest rank and a Grade 7 the lowest.

 

So in that system, a "Grade 3" would have been the 3rd highest grade, or the equivalent of a Staff Sergeant, right? Put another way, the rank of "SP3" would translate to the post-1958 rank of SP/6, right?

[Justin B.]

 

I have a question about this: The rank of "SP3."

 

I know in the WWII and post WWII Army, the ranks were numbered in the reverse order that they are now. (IOW Currently, E-1 is the lowest enlisted grade and E-9 is the highest.) Under the 7-grade system for enlisted ranks that existed prior to the introduction of the "supergrades" in 1958, a Grade 1 would have been the highest rank and a Grade 7 the lowest.

 

So in that system, a "Grade 3" would have been the 3rd highest grade, or the equivalent of a Staff Sergeant, right? Put another way, the rank of "SP3" would translate to the post-1958 rank of SP/6, right?

 

Does that perhaps refer to the original 1955-59 specialist grades with the narrower, straight-sided insignia? At first they were set up sort of like navy petty officers:

 

E-7: Master Specialist

E-6: Specialist 1st Class

E-5: Specialist 2nd Class

E-4: Specialist 3rd Class

 

Of course in '59 Specialist 3rd Class would become Specialist 4, etc. Patches may know more about what the official abbreviations were at various points.

 

The grades with 1st Grade on the top were changed in 1949, to start with E-1 on the bottom.

 

Justin B.

[patches]

In the 50s at least into the very 80s they were invariably seen abbrived as SP SP/ or Spec.

[Justin B.]

In the 50s at least into the very 80s they were invariably seen abbrived as SP SP/ or Spec.

 

So SP1, SP2 and SP3 as shown on the VA grave marker list (http://www.cem.va.gov/CEM/docs/abbreviations/Ranks_Army.pdf) would have to be pre-'59 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class, because specialists were never authorized at those pay grades. And MSP for master specialist.

 

Justin B.

[seanmc1114]

I agree with assessments here by KurtA and Matts, Thought provoking true based on that AID bulletin of the apparent existence of holders Spec 8s from 1958-59 to circa 1963-64, but one of the more curious aspects, like why the MAAG combat patch, and one without a Tab? CIB, if real maybe CIB from Korea, but then why the MAAG???

 

Will check out the other shirt vendor has the 82nd Abn one and have a look see.

 

EDIT seen it was sold, Hope it's the real deal

 

My thought exactly. I suppose he could have been an SF Medic, since I know there were SP/7 medical NCOs but it's hard to imagine an SF E8 sitting in a Specialists' spot.

 

Was the MAAG patch ever authorized as a combat patch? And when was the Jungle Expert patch authorized? Both of those would be red flags for me along with the SP/8 rank.

I'm not arguing for the authenticity of this shirt, but I just ran across this to verify the MAAG SSI without a tab as a legitimate combat patch. These are screenshots from one of the old "The Big Picture" films from the 50s about Army recruiters.

[patches]

 

So SP1, SP2 and SP3 as shown on the VA grave marker list (http://www.cem.va.gov/CEM/docs/abbreviations/Ranks_Army.pdf) would have to be pre-'59 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class, because specialists were never authorized at those pay grades. And MSP for master specialist.

 

Justin B.

Yes. As an example, in a few mid-ish 50s National Guardsman magazines I got, we see SP used.

[patches]

I'm not arguing for the authenticity of this shirt, but I just ran across this to verify the MAAG SSI without a tab as a legitimate combat patch. These are screenshots from one of the old "The Big Picture" films from the 50s about Army recruiters.

Intereting apart from that, note how he wears that recruiting patch on a brassard rather then on the shoulder.

[e19]

In the 50s at least into the very 80s they were invariably seen abbrived as SP SP/ or Spec.

In the 60s, all the orders, rosters, etc that I have seen used SP4, SP5, SP6 and SP7.

[seanmc1114]

I think I posted some of these in another topic I cannot locate now, but here are some legitimate photographs of Specialist 7's which are also rare. First up is a medic from the 25th Infantry Division in Vietnam.

[seanmc1114]

Next is a screenshot from a 1950s "The Big Picture" Army film showing a Specialist 7 Diver instructor with the old style insignia.

[seanmc1114]

I believe this soldier worked for the Armed Forces Radio Network in Panama in the 60s or early 70s.

[seanmc1114]

I believe this soldier worked as an investigator for the Criminal Investigation Command and later became a warrant officer in the same role.

 

https://www.fold3.com/page/14701574_john_a_christel/

[patches]

Here t is Sean, topic was lost, I guess it was in Sorting, Rustycanteen did a search for it and brought it up again.

 

I added the Spec 7 from the 25th Div as I had it scanned as that's the reason I was lookig for this topic, to post image.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/256347-anyone-have-an-army-sp7-uniform-shirt-or-jacket-to-show-off/?p=2298107

[Manny C]

 

I'd be really curious as to what MOS this CIB, master jump wings soldier would have to not be hard-stripe NCO in a Special Forces unit! This one seems "off" to me. Interesting subject, as always, though!

Justin B.

 

Though I doubt the authenticity of this shirt, an SF medic could potentially stay in the specialist ranks. He would have the option to wear a CIB or CMB, but that is pure speculation on my part....