506th fixed bail shell -- legit?

[David D]

Hello,

I saw this posted for sale on FB coming out of France. When I heard about it, I automatically thought fake. But once I saw the photos, I am having a hard time figuring out if its good or bad. The insignia doesn't look like it was painted over the rust which is a good sign, but its also possible to artificially rust a helmet. But the price is only 550 Euro which seems a bit cheap for a 506th helmet even in this condition if it was real, and it coming from a dealer makes me a little more skeptical on the price...

 

Could this actually be a legit 506th shell?

 

[David D]

...

[Screamingeagles101]

Not going to lie, I kind of like it.

Definitely looks like natural aging.

 

Also wear looks constant all around the shell.

 

 

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[yp221]

The shape of the shell doesn't look G.I.

The flare at the front and back look larger. Like a French M1 clone.

[David D]

It's a schlueter shell

[Screamingeagles101]

From what I can tell from the pics, the bales don't appear to be rounded like a Schlueter.

 

Maybe better pics of the bales will tell a different story though.

 

 

 

 

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[1canpara]

The shape of the shell doesn't look G.I.

The flare at the front and back look larger. Like a French M1 clone.

I have to agree, maybe it's just the angle of the photos but the flare of the rim does look suspiciously like a French helmet, especially the second photo, but did the French shells ever have fixed bales?

[jkash23686]

Yup agree with rick and YP that lid does not look US made from those pics at all. Rick I;m not sure if they did but based on the condition of that helmet and the steps it would take to fake this, the person who made it would have no trouble welding on some fixed bails.

[Justin]

I agree, it doesn't look US.

 

Who is the seller?

 

They could be reproduction loops.

 

J

[David D]

I forget at the moment who the seller is. When I get home I will post the link to the helmet.

[Burning Hazard]

I'm not a fan of the staining on the stainless steel rim; looks chemically aged to me.

 

Just some thoughts

[Grant G.]

I personally don't think the base shell is a fake or foreign copy. I believe the helmet's shape is characteristic of a helmet that's experienced enough damage to separate the front seam, altering the silhouette of the helmet. View the images below of a helmet with similar damage, expressing the same shape. Think of all the trouble that someone would have to go through to make what you guys believe to be a foreign lid into a passable M1 relic:

• remove the former rim
• install a stainless steel rim that meets at the front
• remove the old loops
• weld fixed loops

All this effort to create a helmet which you could otherwise get for $15.

 

[Camaro69427]

I'm not a fan of the staining on the stainless steel rim; looks chemically aged to me.

 

Just some thoughts

I'm no helmet expert, but this is exactly what I'm thinking. Stainless doesn't rust/corrode like that.

[Ronny67]

It looks like what it is: a pile of S***

[Andrew]

I can't speak to the authenticity of this shell (as a genuiune 506th shell). However, it is almost certainly not a French Model 51 shell (I have several, along with many other foreign M1 derivatives). The shape of the M51 shell is quite distinctive compared to other M1 derivatives or true M1s, and in this respect it is not really an M1 clone (in concept perhaps, but not in precise shape). There were two (of three) versions of the M51 that had fixed loops, but neither style of French fixed loop would be easily mistaken for an M1 fixed loop. I can't think of any other M1 derivative (Belgian, Dutch, Austrian, Danish, etc) that used fixed loops. So it is pretty certain that the shell at least is US GI. But after all, if someone was going to take this much trouble to fake a relic 506th shell, I doubt he/she would use a European postwar shell.

 

The flare/peak at the front of a French M51 is actually less (not more) pronounced than an M1.

[David D]

To me it doesn't look like a foreign shell to me.

Besides that what other red flags come up, or could it possible be real?

Because just calling it a pile of s*** isn't really helping me and other forum members. If you'd care to elaborate, please do

[Andrew]

Once agreeing that this is indeed a US GI helmet, which I am as certain as possible that it is (based on the photos), we are left with two obvious possibilities.

 

First, that the helmet is just what it appears to be.

 

Second, is that this was a true ground-dug, damaged helmet (not uncommon to find on the battlefields, and not worth very much money from what I have seen in my travels) that someone embellished and then artificially aged so as to blend in the markings. What is the probability that someone happens to find a ground-dug helmet with advanced heavy corrosion on the interior, but with only about 50% of the exterior badly rusted, leaving much of the original paint on the upper crown and just enough white paint to see the markings of a famous airborne unit clearly? We know nothing about the circumstances in which the helmet was caused to rust or how exactly it was found, but it would seem unlikely that a shell with such heavy rust on the interior and half of the exterior is still nearly intact on the outside crown. It is not impossible that this could happen naturally, but I would not bet on it - certainly not 550 Euros or anything even close to that. And this same unusually/atypically corroded shell has 506th markings? Again, not impossible, but almost too good to be true.

[Andrew]

And I would add further, that a would-be forger would need to leave some of the exterior paint clearly intact, otherwise there would be no markings to see, and the entire effort to create a 'special' relic helmet would be defeated.

[David D]

Thank you very much Andrew for the indepth explanation. I see what you mean, and this does seem almost too good to be true

[ken88]

Seller's La boutique du Holdy in Ste Marie Du Mont.

 

He says it's a relic coming from the area around Utah beach.

 

Le Holdy isn't always trustworthy but if he says it's a local find it probably is. If it isn't he's just selling his reputation along with the helmet... I'd take his word for it.

[usaaf93]

Le Holdy isn't always trustworthy but if he says it's a local find it probably is. If it isn't he's just selling his reputation along with the helmet... I'd take his word for it.

 

Hello

 

Le holdy, just like much of the normandy dealers like "paratroopers" has sold crap in the past for original. I do not trust french dealers anymore because they do not care about their reputation. It is not french bashing, I am french ! It is just what I have figured out in more than 15 years of collected overseas.

I buy from US dealers and I never got stolen.

 

Julien

 

[Ronny67]

 

I buy from US dealers and I never got stolen.

 

 

 

Interesting. Now that I think of it, lots of the fakes do originate from Europe.

 

Cultural differences? Maybe this deserves a thread on it's own.

[38Driver]

For the sake of discussion, supposing it is real. What would be the appeal? You have no story to go with it. It would be one thing if there was a way to trace it to a man and how it ended up where it did, but that seems unlikely. Are we still caught up in the Band of Brothers bit that must make it worthwhile? Is the possible airborne connection enough to make someone want to add it to a collection?

[sgtdorango]

For the sake of discussion, supposing it is real. What would be the appeal? You have no story to go with it. It would be one thing if there was a way to trace it to a man and how it ended up where it did, but that seems unlikely. Are we still caught up in the Band of Brothers bit that must make it worthwhile? Is the possible airborne connection enough to make someone want to add it to a collection?

IF real im sure the appeal is owning a helmet no matter the condition, once used by a brave US paratrooper that stormed the gates of fortress europe to take down the baddies.......mike

[David D]

For the sake of discussion, supposing it is real. What would be the appeal? You have no story to go with it. It would be one thing if there was a way to trace it to a man and how it ended up where it did, but that seems unlikely. Are we still caught up in the Band of Brothers bit that must make it worthwhile? Is the possible airborne connection enough to make someone want to add it to a collection?

Assuming it is real. A 506th shell on its own is rare. But found on the battle field in Normandy sure adds to it. And what do you mean possible airborne connection? It has the tac mark of the 506th parachute infantry. If it is real there is no doubt it has an airborne connection...