sgtmonroe Posted September 16, 2008 Share #1 Posted September 16, 2008 I originally posted these images on another forum. Hopefully some of the others here might have some images to add. M-1967 Modernized Load-Carrying Equipment [MLCE] In Use, Southeast Asia, 1968-1975 Part One United States Army 1969 - Photograph taken by Ronnie R. Edwards of L Company [Ranger], 101st Airborne Division, United States Army circa 1969 of equipment staging in Quang Tri, Vietnam. A M-1967 water canteen cover is visible. It is loaded with 20-round cartridge magazines. The rifles are XM177E1s. 1969 - Captain William H. Gaylor, commander of Bravo Company, 4th Battalion, 31st Infantry Regiment, Americal Division - 28 August 1969, Hiep Duc Valley, Vietnam - armed with an XM177E1 [with collapsible stock replaced with fixed M16A1 stock] and wearing M-1967 individual equipment belt suspenders. He also has the two-quart canteen and cover. The next four [4] images come from the text "Ranger" by Ron Field. 1969 - P Company [Ranger], 75th Infantry [Airborne], Quang-Tri Provence, Vietnam, 21 December 1969. On the left is Roy Burke and the right is David Barber. Shorty after this image was taken the helicopter was airborne and under fire. The helicopter crashed killing all aboard except for Larry Smith [pictured below]. Both men have M-1967 MLCE small arms ammunition cases. 1969 - Larry Smith aboard the same helicopter pictured above. He survived the crash. Pictured is a M-1967 MLCE small arms ammunition case. 1970 - H Company [Ranger], 75th Infanrty [Airborne], Phouc Vinh, November 1970. Al Rapp applies camouflage face paint to Glen McCrary's face. McCrary is wearing a pair of M-1967 MLCE individual equipment belt suspenders. 1970 - P Company [Ranger], 75th Infantry [Airborne], near DMZ, 1970. The center Ranger [name unknown] is wearing both M-1967 MLCE individual equipment belt suspenders and small arms ammunition cases. 1971 - Clem Hausman of the 62nd IPCT attached to the 1st Cavalry Division [Airmobile], United States Army in 1971. The M-1967 individual equipment belt suspenders are being worn. 1971 - Miller Taylor, unknown unit, United States Army in 1971. Attached to the rucksack is a M-1967 water canteen cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted September 16, 2008 Author Share #2 Posted September 16, 2008 Part Two United States Marine Corps 1975 - United States Marine atop the U.S. embassy wall in Saigon, 29 April 1975 during Operation Frequent Wind. Visible are the M-1967 small arms ammunition case [30-round] and M-1967 intrenching tool carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted September 16, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted September 16, 2008 Part Three United States Navy 1968 - A U.S. Navy SEAL with Stoner and M-1967 water canteen cover attached to the individual equipment belt. The photograph is credited as being taken in 1968. 1969-70 - A U.S. Navy SEAL circa 1969-70 with M-1967 individual equipment belt suspenders and M-1967 20-round small arms ammunition case. The rifle is a Colt Model 601. 1969-70 - United States Navy SEALs. This image was already captioned when I found it. I do not believe it is 1967! The SEAL on the far left has a pair of M-1967 small arms ammunition cases. Of note is the SEAL second from right [standing] - he is holding a very rare CAR-15 Submachine Gun also known as a Colt Model 607. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 16, 2008 Share #4 Posted September 16, 2008 Cool pictures keep them coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QED4 Posted September 17, 2008 Share #5 Posted September 17, 2008 The fourth picture in post 1, Larry Smith, what is the ammo pouch he is wearing? It may just be the angle of the picture but I don't recognize it, the front of both the pouch and cover look rounded rather than squared off and it looks wider than I would expect. Dose any one have one of these pouches that they could post a picture of I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share #6 Posted September 17, 2008 Its the standard M-1967 small arms ammunition case for 20-round 5.56mm cartridge magazines: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QED4 Posted September 17, 2008 Share #7 Posted September 17, 2008 Thanks, I guess it was just the angle, it did not appear to have the squared off bottom or the seams in the flap and it looked bigger than the 20 round pouch but upon closed look I guess it dose look right. I thought for a minute there was some thing else I would have to start looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share #8 Posted September 17, 2008 Now, if you look at the second Navy SEAL image, that small arms ammunition case does look very "squared off" compared to all the other images of the small arms ammunition case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted September 17, 2008 Share #9 Posted September 17, 2008 Part ThreeUnited States Navy 1969-70 - A U.S. Navy SEAL circa 1969-70 with M-1967 individual equipment belt suspenders and M-1967 20-round small arms ammunition case. The rifle is a Colt Model 601. This pictured ammo case is a "Case Small Arms Ammunition 30 Rd XM-16E1" These were available from 1969. Link. http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=114 It can be clearly be seen that it isn't a 20 Rd mag pouch, it's too tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrhell Posted September 17, 2008 Share #10 Posted September 17, 2008 Here's another odd rig: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted September 17, 2008 Share #11 Posted September 17, 2008 Here's another odd rig: Not all that uncommon, and it isn't M-1967 gear but M-1956. M-1967 suspenders had this feature built in and didn't require an adapter to move the butt pack. The SF trooper is using a navigation device and has had to move his Butt pack to the top of the suspenders via the Butt pack adapter straps. Link http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercenary25 Posted October 1, 2008 Share #12 Posted October 1, 2008 Cool thread! Any pictures of USMC Recon with M1967? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted October 2, 2008 Share #13 Posted October 2, 2008 Cool thread! Any pictures of USMC Recon with M1967? marine recons were using M61 & M56 mixed gear with mostly ARVN packs....not common for marine recons to have army nylon M67 pieces they could'nt put hand to the new army staff that easy...they were allways using older M56 patterns from 1968-69 the army M1956 canteen covers suspenders & ammo pouches were common to most of the marines allways mixed with M61 belts & marines jungle FA pouches it does'nt seem that they used M56 butt packs-they were happy with their ARVN & the M41s & they kept their M43 E-tool covers till the end... some times you can see quite a few marines with army M1952/M69 flak jackets esspecialy to the battle of hue but it was allways the exeption to the rule for some reason you can see in period pictures very many marines with airborne M1C helmet liners!!! & ERDL cammo uniforms were universal after 1968 to all the marines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share #14 Posted October 7, 2008 I've got some more images to add and will try and get them posted in the next few days. I am trying to identify the time period on a couple of them. But for now I am adding this one that ended up on another post: Troopers from D Company, 2/8 Cavalry, Xuân Lộc, Dong Nai Province, South Vietnam, 1971. The trooper on the right has a 30-round M-1967 small arms ammunition case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share #15 Posted October 8, 2008 Both the following images are of RTO [rank unknown] Peter Guthrie, Charlie Company, 1/9 Cavalry, unknown location in South Vietnam. Date is either late 1969 or early 1970. Both the small arms ammunition cases are M-1967 MLCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted October 8, 2008 Share #16 Posted October 8, 2008 Both the following images are of RTO [rank unknown] Peter Guthrie, Charlie Company, 1/9 Cavalry, unknown location in South Vietnam. Date is either late 1969 or early 1970. Both the small arms ammunition cases are M-1967 MLCE. and the suspenders too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share #17 Posted October 8, 2008 Dave Weeks, L Company [Ranger], 101st Airborne Division. Unknown location in South Vietnam. Date is late 1969 or early 1970 [photograph by Robin Kristiansen]. Weeks is wearing the M-1967 MLCE individual equipment belt suspenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick. Posted October 8, 2008 Share #18 Posted October 8, 2008 Hello, post #15 is a superb image. Thanks for posting. Patrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted October 8, 2008 Share #19 Posted October 8, 2008 looks like the use of the M67 MLCE in late nam was much more common than i thought The question remains with the butt pack.I asked an old dealer of militaria in belgium about the dates of the M67 army contract butt pack & he told me that he'v never seen one dated before 1972 allthough he had for sale & examined along the years thousands of those!! For him the 60s dated M67 is an elusive item also..probably the production of the butt pack delayed a few years so finaly coincidend with the advance of the ALICE gear & not with the older M67...the reason why is probably bc the MLCE was intented strictly for jungle warfare in Nam.You dont see M67 MLCE in germany or allsewere in the early to mid 70s...not even later.. but the large M67 jungle pack was much more usefull in nam than a butt pack so it was no rush for the quick production of the butt pack...you dont see much even the M56 & M62 butt packs in nam after 1965-66 as they proved useless in real combat due to their small capacity.Its size make it ideal as a general purpose ammo bag or a demolition bag but it's way too small to be a real combat pack esspecially for vietnam long marches.In the greek army we had faithfull greek copies of the M62 & it was totally dissapointing as a combat pack...that's why after declared as a "TRAINING PACK.."even when you squeezing the contents you cannot putt inside anything more than 1 pair of socks 1 pair of underwear- british style rectangular mess tins- knife-fork- spoon a very small towel-1 can of pork beef & crackers inside the mess tins. so an explaination may be that very few "if not any" butt pack produced in the 60s bc there was no need for butt packs in nam.. just for the shake of history..Does anyone has ever seen a M67 butt pack even in very poor condition with a readeable date 1968 1969 or 70? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share #20 Posted October 8, 2008 looks like the use of the M67 MLCE in late nam was much more common than i thought I have to agree. For the longest I really did not think the M-1967 MLCE was even used in Southeast Asia. Most of the older texts I have do not contain images of the equipment being utilized. It was not until I really got into researching the stuff did I start to find images of its use. Rangers Byrd (left) and Wolfiel; L Company (Ranger), 101st Airborne Division, unknown location in South Vietnam; August 1970. Wolfiel has a pair of M-1967 MLCE small arms ammunition cases. I personally have never come across a M-1967 field pack in 20 years of collecting. Here is a list of the other equipment I have or have seen (with contract information): Belt, Individual Equipment FSN 8465-935-6815 (medium) FSN 8465-935-6816 (large) DSA 100-68-C-2566 - no manufacturer listed Only one known contract is issued for the individual equipment belt in 1968. Most nomenclature and contract information printed on these individual equipment belts is illegible. Carrier, Intrenching Tool FSN 8465-935-6826 DSA 100-68-C-2833 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-1711 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-70-C-0765 - R T Corporation DSA 100-71-C-0416 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-74-C-0097 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated I believe there are contracts for 1972 and 1973. Carrier, Sleeping Equipment FSN 8465-935-6813 DSA 100-68-C-2549 - no manufacturer listed Case, Field First Aid Dressing - Unmounted Magnetic Compass FSN 8465-935-6814 DSA 100-68-C-2743 - no manufacturer listed Case, Small Arms Ammunition FSN 8465-935-6780 DSA 100-68-C-2778 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-2177 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated I have a 1970 contract case but everything is illegible. Cover, Water Canteen FSN 8465-860-0256 DSA 100-68-C-1000 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-68-C-1680 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-68-C-2766 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-0259 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-1232 - Lake State Manufacturing Corporation DSA 100-69-C-2050 - Lake State Manufacturing Corporation DSA 100-70-C-1984 - La Crosse Garment Manufacturing Company DSA 100-71-C-1156 - E.C.T. Corporation DSA 100-71-C-1683 - E.C.T. Corporation DSA 100-72-C-0752 - CBS Enterprises Incorporated DSA 100-72-C-1281 - CBS Enterprises Incorporated DSA 100-73-C-0310 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-73-C-0416 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-74-C-0323 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated Field Pack FSN 8465-935-6825 The field pack (also known as a "butt pack") appears to only have a 1968 contract issued, don't know what the contract number is. Suspenders, Individual Equipment Belt FSN 8465-935-6830 DSA 100-68-C-2823 - no manufacturer listed Case, Small Arms Ammunition FSN 8465-926-6610 DSA 100-69-C-2799 - Rebmar Incorporated 30-round small arms ammunition case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_pickrall Posted October 8, 2008 Share #21 Posted October 8, 2008 The M1967 gear showed up in TM 10-276 AUG, 1970 before it appeared in FM 21-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted October 9, 2008 Share #22 Posted October 9, 2008 I have to agree. For the longest I really did not think the M-1967 MLCE was even used in Southeast Asia. Most of the older texts I have do not contain images of the equipment being utilized. It was not until I really got into researching the stuff did I start to find images of its use. Rangers Byrd (left) and Wolfiel; L Company (Ranger), 101st Airborne Division, unknown location in South Vietnam; August 1970. Wolfiel has a pair of M-1967 MLCE small arms ammunition cases. I personally have never come across a M-1967 field pack in 20 years of collecting. Here is a list of the other equipment I have or have seen (with contract information): Belt, Individual Equipment FSN 8465-935-6815 (medium) FSN 8465-935-6816 (large) DSA 100-68-C-2566 - no manufacturer listed Only one known contract is issued for the individual equipment belt in 1968. Most nomenclature and contract information printed on these individual equipment belts is illegible. Carrier, Intrenching Tool FSN 8465-935-6826 DSA 100-68-C-2833 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-1711 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-70-C-0765 - R T Corporation DSA 100-71-C-0416 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-74-C-0097 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated I believe there are contracts for 1972 and 1973. Carrier, Sleeping Equipment FSN 8465-935-6813 DSA 100-68-C-2549 - no manufacturer listed Case, Field First Aid Dressing - Unmounted Magnetic Compass FSN 8465-935-6814 DSA 100-68-C-2743 - no manufacturer listed Case, Small Arms Ammunition FSN 8465-935-6780 DSA 100-68-C-2778 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-2177 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated I have a 1970 contract case but everything is illegible. Cover, Water Canteen FSN 8465-860-0256 DSA 100-68-C-1000 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-68-C-1680 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-68-C-2766 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-0259 - no manufacturer listed DSA 100-69-C-1232 - Lake State Manufacturing Corporation DSA 100-69-C-2050 - Lake State Manufacturing Corporation DSA 100-70-C-1984 - La Crosse Garment Manufacturing Company DSA 100-71-C-1156 - E.C.T. Corporation DSA 100-71-C-1683 - E.C.T. Corporation DSA 100-72-C-0752 - CBS Enterprises Incorporated DSA 100-72-C-1281 - CBS Enterprises Incorporated DSA 100-73-C-0310 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-73-C-0416 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated DSA 100-74-C-0323 - Eastern Canvas Products Incorporated Field Pack FSN 8465-935-6825 The field pack (also known as a "butt pack") appears to only have a 1968 contract issued, don't know what the contract number is. Suspenders, Individual Equipment Belt FSN 8465-935-6830 DSA 100-68-C-2823 - no manufacturer listed Case, Small Arms Ammunition FSN 8465-926-6610 DSA 100-69-C-2799 - Rebmar Incorporated 30-round small arms ammunition case. so you say you have seen packs with 60s date...so they did'nt start making it in 1972 then... but we have no foto & the question remains..why all the rest M67 pieces are so common with sharp 60s dated & you can find them all over the place fairly easy while the 60s dated butt pack is so elusive...??? that's not a normal phenomenon...you can only see them dated in 70s & that's make sence to me...if they were some dated 1968 were are they hiden?is it a global conspiracy to hiden all the 1968 dated butt packs??? i dont thinks so if they were in production why anyone have'nt ever seen one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtmonroe Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share #23 Posted October 9, 2008 Craig and I, along with a few others, had the same discussion years ago on the old Gunboards forum. A very wise member mentioned something about them being all shipped to Central America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted October 9, 2008 Share #24 Posted October 9, 2008 Craig and I, along with a few others, had the same discussion years ago on the old Gunboards forum. A very wise member mentioned something about them being all shipped to Central America. Before the collector starts collecting its good to know if the item ever existed or not existed...there is a more simple & convincing theory abt the M67 butt pack..maybe we collectors dont like it bc we are allways looking for the holly grail...simply they probably produced during 70s...a prototype of the butt pack shown up only to the field manual witch of what i can see is more a nylon copy of the M62 than a M67 as we know it later In the same manual we can see also a large pouch to the same dimensions as the older M1956 probably made for M14 magazines-later this droped as the M14 was no longer the standard service rifle & decided to make 2 different pouches the 20rd short & the 30rd long M16E1 belt with Davis buckle...not an issue item as Davis did'nt adopted for nylon M67 belts experimental e-tool cover-adopted later but revised without the bayonet tab & strap sleeping bag carrier in the standard production pattern 1st aid pouch in the standard production pattern canteen cover in the standard production pattern experimental suspenders-the issue production model had the back buckles transfered midway to the straps lenght so we have a picture of an experimental butt pack in a photo of experimental pre-production items...that's not a great evidence of its acctual production date & not necessarilly means that this pack produced in 1968 along with the rest pieces of equipment.According to all the evidence & owr collecting experiance the butt pack production delayed for about 4 or 5 years!!! Dont ask me why? i dont know why...till now the oldest date we'v seen in one is the 1970 dated USMC contract witch is part of another equipmet...i love to see a good clear picture of an Army contract dated 1968 69 or 70.. that will be a great evidence & will drop the theory that this pack allthough part of the M67 system as a design never was a real part of this equipment & acctually goes along the ALICE line of equipment. To add to the confusion of what i can see on very later 80s butt packs they are still marked as M1967...so an explaination is that the M1967 is just a pattent date...imdeed patented in 1967 & not produced in 1967 but produced later in 1972 we need a myth buster here to bring us a 60s dated butt pack....the theory with the export to the latin america is not convincing...US sent ALL the packs to latin america & not even 1 sample survived to the states!!!????? why the US government was so desperate to get rid of them?!!! were they so horrible?!!! when we are identifying an item i'm trying not to fall in to my dreams & my obssesions..."and believe me as a collector i have many obsessions to fight"..i'm trying to accept only the logical theories: i can accept that the item was little produced in the 60s & there are not many surviving samples i can accept that its production delayed to the early 70s i can even accept that they exported to latin america-i can accept anything but i cannot accept the crazy fact that we cannot find even one 60s sample!!! that's absolutely impossible for an item that normally produced in thousands of pieces here in the forum there are ppl able to get even ultra rare experimental sets of the XM-M1956 equipment!!!!!!! & we'r all totally unable to find a production piece of a widely produced & distributed set of equipment???????? something stinx here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_pickrall Posted October 9, 2008 Share #25 Posted October 9, 2008 Before the collector starts collecting its good to know if the item ever existed or not existed...there is a more simple & convincing theory abt the M67 butt pack..maybe we collectors dont like it bc we are allways looking for the holly grail...simply they probably produced during 70s...a prototype of the butt pack shown up only to the field manual witch of what i can see is more a nylon copy of the M62 than a M67 as we know it later In the same manual we can see also a large pouch to the same dimensions as the older M1956 probably made for M14 magazines-later this droped as the M14 was no longer the standard service rifle & decided to make 2 different pouches the 20rd short & the 30rd long M16E1 belt with Davis buckle...not an issue item as Davis did'nt adopted for nylon M67 belts experimental e-tool cover-adopted later but revised without the bayonet tab & strap sleeping bag carrier in the standard production pattern 1st aid pouch in the standard production pattern canteen cover in the standard production pattern experimental suspenders-the issue production model had the back buckles transfered midway to the straps lenght so we have a picture of an experimental butt pack in a photo of experimental pre-production items...that's not a great evidence of its acctual production date & not necessarilly means that this pack produced in 1968 along with the rest pieces of equipment.According to all the evidence & owr collecting experiance the butt pack production delayed for about 4 or 5 years!!! Dont ask me why? i dont know why...till now the oldest date we'v seen in one is the 1970 dated USMC contract witch is part of another equipmet...i love to see a good clear picture of an Army contract dated 1968 69 or 70.. that will be a great evidence & will drop the theory that this pack allthough part of the M67 system as a design never was a real part of this equipment & acctually goes along the ALICE line of equipment. To add to the confusion of what i can see on very later 80s butt packs they are still marked as M1967...so an explaination is that the M1967 is just a pattent date...imdeed patented in 1967 & not produced in 1967 but produced later in 1972 we need a myth buster here to bring us a 60s dated butt pack....the theory with the export to the latin america is not convincing...US sent ALL the packs to latin america & not even 1 sample survived to the states!!!????? why the US government was so desperate to get rid of them?!!! were they so horrible?!!! when we are identifying an item i'm trying not to fall in to my dreams & my obssesions..."and believe me as a collector i have many obsessions to fight"..i'm trying to accept only the logical theories: i can accept that the item was little produced in the 60s & there are not many surviving samples i can accept that its production delayed to the early 70s i can even accept that they exported to latin america-i can accept anything but i cannot accept the crazy fact that we cannot find even one 60s sample!!! that's absolutely impossible for an item that normally produced in thousands of pieces here in the forum there are ppl able to get even ultra rare experimental sets of the XM-M1956 equipment!!!!!!! & we'r all totally unable to find a production piece of a widely produced & distributed set of equipment???????? something stinx here Sgtmonroe has been gathering gear and data on late Vietnam nylon gear and immediate post war nylon gear for the several years I have known him. I do not know of anyone that knows more about this particular era equipment. If he gives an estimate of the M67 Butt Pack being produced in only 1968 I will believe him. We all have been looking for photo or printed proof for years but so far no luck. Maybe one day. As to the list of comments in the quote above I would like to be sure I understand this correctly. I think this is your personal theory and not necessairly the theory of the collector community at large. Is this correct? I know personally I have been collecting this gear almost from the beginning of production and I don't agree with a lot of your theory. Some of the points I disagree with are as follows: 2nd paragraph - They made the magazine pouches in nylon for the M14 magazines. There were versions with and without the side straps for grenades. 3rd para - There is photo proof of Davis buckles in use with M67 nylon belts. For one see the manual photos I posted above. I have 11 of these belts and 9 of them have Davis buckles. 9th para - The butt pack was not part of the ALICE system. You can not find it in any version of FM 21-15 used during the ALICE period. The 1977 version was the first issue to give the main coverage to ALICE but there was a separate section that covered the older M56 / M67 gear since there was still so much of it in the system. There is no discussion of using the butt pack along with the ALICE pack. 10th para - The government does not use patent dates. The only thing I see in your theory is the conclusions you have drawn from photos and data posted by other members of this forum. You have not introduced any new data or photos of your own. Do you have any other documentation for your conclusions? If so, I for one, would love to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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