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BEAST

BEST REFERENCE FOR PRE-WWI USMC UNIFORMS?

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What references for pre-WWI USMC uniforms would the members of the forum recommend? I have the 1912 Revised in 1917 uniform regs, but I was wondering what else is out there that is useful? Did Alec Tulkoff cover uniforms in volume II of Equipping the Corps? Is volume II even released?

 

I have also searched through the threads here on the forum using search terms such as 1904 USMC, 1912 USMC and found a few, but would like to find information such as in 19XX, the Marines switched to chest pockets with bellows, etc.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 


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" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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Alec is working on volume II at this time, and it has not been released. Jim Moran put out a book on Marine Corps uniforms 1912-1945 several years ago. It is out of print I believe but you can still find copies for around $45-$50. It has some errors in it, especially the section on ega's but has regulations reprinted and a lot of photos (although all are black and white). This is an area where there is a great need for reference material in my opinion, and I am personally very anxious for Tulkoffs work. The era between the Civil War and 1912 is also not covered very well in reference books. There is a good book by Schiffer Publishing on Civil War Marine uniforms and equipment.

 

The chest pockets you refer to, is that on the green service uniform? I know the dress blues did not have chest pockets until 1945 when they were first introduced. If I recall correctly the service green uniform was introduced in 1912, and initially had only breast pockets and I believe changed two years later to include the two lower pockets. Kevin


I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Pockets for the enlisted blues blouse came about in 1947

 

Not sure if a all era uniform reference exists, am interested in hearing if there is, as well


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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Thanks guys. Sorry if I was a bit unclear with my example of the pockets. I was trying to use that to show the level of detail that I am looking for in a reference book or books. Looking at some of the references on the web, I have found descriptions lacking in detail. For example, the site may state that the Marines adopted a cotton jacket in 1904 but only go on to say that they continued to wear it through WWI. No detail about changes in the specifications that occurred throughout the years. If you have read World War I Nerd's threads on WWI uniforms, that's the kind of detail I would like to see.


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" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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I second that Beast, but sadly, no reference I know of captures that. I will give a good example,mi recently acquired a dress blue tunic with a straight stand up collar as opposed to the rolled collar worn and typically seen in the span Am war. This tunic is unissued and has the stamp in the sleeve lining as well as a sewn in paper tag dated 1898-1899. The tunic I think answers the question of when the change in shape was made to the collars of the blue tunic. I agree with you, this is the type of research and detail that is needed in a good reference book. I suspect Alec's volume two will cover much of this gap. Kevin


I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Uniform regulations would lay it out best, without reference images, however the Marine Corps has always been a strange beast, and there was always overlap until current stocks were depleted. This still happens today, for the exact same reasons...budget

 

To muddle it further, in the early days often, Marines just kept wearing their old stuff long after the regs changed. EGA regs changed, but Marines continued to wear old patterns...this is quite often seen with young LTs being commissioned with a relative's emblems, and continuing to wear their original emblems, particularly in the case of dress emblems, as they had spent good money on silver and gold.

 

Here's a great example...notice the different size chevrons and assortment of covers. This photo was taken Christmas 1925, years after the bell crown fell out of regs...

8-24-2014 7;02;50 PM.JPG


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

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Great image Brig that definitely reflects that a change in regs didn't appear in actual wear over night. What is really fascinating about that photo are the Marines who took the time (and expense) to buy the new hat but didn't update their stripes from the old seam to seam, and visa versa, updated their stripes but are wearing the bell crown still.


I am eagerly collecting Pre-WWII USMC material. Any Marine Corps Span Am era, WWI, Banana Wars, or China Marine related material is especially sought after.

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Agree with everything stated. Only thing to add, try doing some deep forum searches using different words, USMC, Marine Corps, jacket, tunic ect. I believe some of the info is on here, just buried.


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Uniform regulations would lay it out best, without reference images, however the Marine Corps has always been a strange beast, and there was always overlap until current stocks were depleted. This still happens today, for the exact same reasons...budget

 

To muddle it further, in the early days often, Marines just kept wearing their old stuff long after the regs changed. EGA regs changed, but Marines continued to wear old patterns...this is quite often seen with young LTs being commissioned with a relative's emblems, and continuing to wear their original emblems, particularly in the case of dress emblems, as they had spent good money on silver and gold.

 

Here's a great example...notice the different size chevrons and assortment of covers. This photo was taken Christmas 1925, years after the bell crown fell out of regs...

Brig,

 

Great photo! It's an excellent illustration of your point. Not knowing any better, if most collectors saw a display of a 1920's Marine wearing a bell crown, they would just write it off as a mistake on the part of the person doing the display. Just another reason to collect photos of your area of interest.


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donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif



" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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Does anyone reprint the 1904 and 1908 uniform regs? I found the 1912 without the 1917 revision on-line and read through it last night. Also, I am trying to find pre-1912 editions of the Army Navy Register as sometimes that has articles and comments about the uniforms.


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" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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I did find that on the website "Grand Army of the Frontier" (http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/) they have posted many of the Army, Navy and Marine uniform regs from 1900 and earlier.

 

Here is a link to the page with the uniform regs. http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/regs.htm


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donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif



" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

View my website honoring the men and women of Indiana: http://indianavets.wix.com/indiana-at-war and follow my updates on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/IndianaModernAgeofWar/
Interested in US uniforms? Join the Association of American Military Uniform Collectors! http://aamuc.org/or find us on Facebook! facebook.com/AAMUC.ORG

 

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Brig, do you have a hi-res copy of this you could email me for study?

Uniform regulations would lay it out best, without reference images, however the Marine Corps has always been a strange beast, and there was always overlap until current stocks were depleted. This still happens today, for the exact same reasons...budget

 

To muddle it further, in the early days often, Marines just kept wearing their old stuff long after the regs changed. EGA regs changed, but Marines continued to wear old patterns...this is quite often seen with young LTs being commissioned with a relative's emblems, and continuing to wear their original emblems, particularly in the case of dress emblems, as they had spent good money on silver and gold.

 

Here's a great example...notice the different size chevrons and assortment of covers. This photo was taken Christmas 1925, years after the bell crown fell out of regs...

 


Semper Fidelis, to all Marines past, present and future..

*Remembering CWO3 James Warren Maddox, USMC 1957-2018*

LOOKING FOR EARLY USMC CHEVRONS & RANK INSIGNIA, COMPETITIVE MARKSMANSHIP AWARDS, RECRUITING MATERIALS AND POSTERS, PHOTOGRAPHS, PENNANTS, SIGNATURES, EARLY NUMBERED CAMPAIGN MEDALS, PRE-1900 USMC GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL, USMC ENGRAVED NAVY MARKSMANSHIP MEDAL, ANY MATERIALS RELATED TO 1ST BATTALION 9TH MARINES OR ANY OF THE THREE SHIPS BEARING THE NAME "USS MADDOX".


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I would love to see a reference book as well with period photos and color photos of early USMC uniforms/headgear in collections.


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