Jump to content

Experimental M1917A1 frogskin cover


GeneralCheese
 Share

Recommended Posts

GeneralCheese

This helmet cover was made in the last 20 years from original WWII USMC fabric.

 

I hope you did not pay much.

So you know that for certain? Who would chop up a good pair of pants or bolt of material just to make something that no one knows even really exists, except for a few pre-war photos?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

I just did a burn test on the thread, and it is definitely not a modern thread. It charred. It is on the right in this photo, and some modern nylon thread is on the left:

 

post-30085-0-35177200-1466963322.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

They still sell cotton cord. I work at a hardware store, so I can confirm.

 

This is definitely not a modern made item. Let's just look at the logic of that - why would anyone make such a strange item, out of material so valuable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently saw a really good fake M2 made from a beautiful early, proper heat lot range M1 FS FB McCord. The guy brazed on fake loops and put the old standard straps back on. It was a sweet early lid which are getting harder to find. And the job was with period parts, done the period way. So it was a good fake. The guy was hoping to turn a $200 lid into a $2-$3000 rainfall. But the loops were stainless. And the aging was not right... I digress.

 

I see the remnants of a pocket, and a size stamp from a pair of WWII USMC cammies. Then I see stitching that looks like it was done yesterday.

 

Cheese- if only a few, experienced folks know about this item, than why should we expect the fakers to be any less competent?

 

When dealing with the rare and exquisite it is best to keep an open mind to all possibilities, good or bad. You can't ignore that this cover could have been made a month ago. The materials are out there, all it takes is the knowledge and lack of conscious...

 

Whether or not this specific cover is fake... I don't have it hand. I have only seen the above and made my conclusion, which remains firm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

I recently saw a really good fake M2 made from a beautiful early, proper heat lot range M1 FS FB McCord. The guy brazed on fake loops and put the old standard straps back on. It was a sweet early lid which are getting harder to find. And the job was with period parts, done the period way. So it was a good fake. The guy was hoping to turn a $200 lid into a $2-$3000 rainfall. But the loops were stainless. And the aging was not right... I digress.

 

I see the remnants of a pocket, and a size stamp from a pair of WWII USMC cammies. Then I see stitching that looks like it was done yesterday.

 

Cheese- if only a few, experienced folks know about this item, than why should we expect the fakers to be any less competent?

 

When dealing with the rare and exquisite it is best to keep an open mind to all possibilities, good or bad. You can't ignore that this cover could have been made a month ago. The materials are out there, all it takes is the knowledge and lack of conscious...

 

Whether or not this specific cover is fake... I don't have it hand. I have only seen the above and made my conclusion, which remains firm.

 

I do have an open mind, it's just nothing about it seems off in hand. If this were sold to me for several hundred dollars I'd be more open to the thought of someone having faked it, but the price I got it for was much much less than 1/10th the price of a normal WWII cover.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

I think it's the chest measurement of a m-44 type jacket.

 

Do you have a picture handy of the size marking? I've been looking at several online, shirts and pants, but haven't been able to find a match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

Ok, I took a closer look and can say without a doubt this WAS cut from either a jacket or pair of pants. The catch is that it would have to have been an absolutely mint, never worn pair, as the area where the stitching was removed is the exact same shade as the areas around it, and it is nearly impossible to know there was something there other than the presence of a few loose threads. The two red lines show where it was stitched, then in the current seam, you can see the two lines going perpendicular in one spot.

post-30085-0-81079000-1466983973.jpg

 

As for the "size" marking, it would make sense that at the depot, a few jackets or pants would be taken at the same time, from the same stack, likely being the same size, to make the covers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

Here is a closeup of the perpendicular stitching:

 

post-30085-0-78789900-1466984337.jpg

 

While it is possible a faker cut up 2 perfectly mint condition size 36 pants or jackets, I think a much more likely story is that this is a depot/field made cover made in small amounts in late 1941 after the uniforms had been issued, and large stocks would be available to make such things with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you're saying that at the Depot they took a brand new pair of pants and made an experimental helmet cover out of it. OK, then why is there no wear on the helmet cover? If only a few were made for testing, why didn't it get used? Plus the only other one that's turned up is also in unused condition.

 

Let's try this scenario. Some entrepreneur finds a cut down or otherwise unsellable pair of cammo pants at the Goodwill store. He knows that it won't bring any money on eBay so instead uses the material for his own creation. To maximize his return he uses every bit of cloth that he can, hence the off center seam on the helmet cover. And since they didn't exist in the first place back in 1941-42 no one bids on them and the price stays low. But since he had a few made up he auctions them off slowly so the market doesn't get flooded.

 

I know that if I saw that cover at a military show there is no way I would have bought it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

pararaftanr2

The only problem with that argument is that in "late 1941" the Marines had not been issued "large stocks" of camouflaged utilities. By the time they were, the M1917A1 helmets would have been obsolete and not in use by front line troops, therefore, no need for a depot to make up improvised covers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

So you're saying that at the Depot they took a brand new pair of pants and made an experimental helmet cover out of it. OK, then why is there no wear on the helmet cover? If only a few were made for testing, why didn't it get used? Plus the only other one that's turned up is also in unused condition.

 

Let's try this scenario. Some entrepreneur finds a cut down or otherwise unsellable pair of cammo pants at the Goodwill store. He knows that it won't bring any money on eBay so instead uses the material for his own creation. To maximize his return he uses every bit of cloth that he can, hence the off center seam on the helmet cover. And since they didn't exist in the first place back in 1941-42 no one bids on them and the price stays low. But since he had a few made up he auctions them off slowly so the market doesn't get flooded.

 

I know that if I saw that cover at a military show there is no way I would have bought it.

 

An "otherwise unsellable" pair with a chunk of absolutely perfect material, that had never seen the sun before? Let's not get carried away here. I'm sure the faker who listed it as a "drawstring military helmet cover" and sold it for $8 is really rolling in the dough...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

The only problem with that argument is that in "late 1941" the Marines had not been issued "large stocks" of camouflaged utilities. By the time they were, the M1917A1 helmets would have been obsolete and not in use by front line troops, therefore, no need for a depot to make up improvised covers.

 

I don't know the exact dates of everything, but M1917A1s were used up until very very early 1942, so there is an overlap from when the camos were widely issued (1942), to when the M1917A1 fell out of use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So they made an experimental cover for a helmet that was going out of service? Surely they knew that the M1 helmet was replacing the M1917A1 during 1942.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

So they made an experimental cover for a helmet that was going out of service? Surely they knew that the M1 helmet was replacing the M1917A1 during 1942.

 

The Army Corps of Engineers had been testing out camo since 1940, so there is a solid 2 year chunk of overlap there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Depot made, why the off color thread? Surely they had plenty of khaki thread to use. Never seen that brown any other piece of WW2 gear. Picture #4, the sewing is done so poorly that it runs off of the material that was intended to get hemmed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good eye Robin. That thread did look wonky. Partly why I did not like the stitching....

 

This is my face after stepping into this thread.....

post-153625-0-87223500-1466989315.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

If Depot made, why the off color thread? Surely they had plenty of khaki thread to use. Never seen that brown any other piece of WW2 gear. Picture #4, the sewing is done so poorly that it runs off of the material that was intended to get hemmed.

 

So? I don't see the issue with that at all. it's pretty clear that this was hand made in small numbers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

If Depot made, why the off color thread? Surely they had plenty of khaki thread to use. Never seen that brown any other piece of WW2 gear. Picture #4, the sewing is done so poorly that it runs off of the material that was intended to get hemmed.

 

 

I found 2 different canteen covers in about a minute of searching using the same thread for repairs. Funny enough they are also USMC canteen covers.

post-30085-0-94059500-1466989903.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That thread is khaki and the repair thread is OD. I don't see any brown thread in that picture at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

GeneralCheese

That thread is khaki and the repair thread is OD. I don't see any brown thread in that picture at all.

 

They're pretty clearly both brown, albeit slightly different shades, could be due to soiling and use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK. I'm convinced too. I hope it's the center piece of your collection and you enjoy it for many years to come.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...