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can any one help me with a flag 1898


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hi all . i am in australia not the usa i came apon this flag in a frame .. it has buffalo soldiers 10th calvary san jun hill 1898 and a few name in the stars ...its in very bad shape , falling apart ......and dont look like the flag of the usa .any ideas its about 24in ligh 33 in wide looks very old but the frame looks 60s to 70s post-162447-0-44944000-1460064023.jpgpost-162447-0-18701500-1460064027.jpgpost-162447-0-07615700-1460064029.jpgpost-162447-0-91401100-1460064030.jpgpost-162447-0-17069000-1460064033.jpg

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As a flag collector, I can say the flag looks real 45 stars would be correct for 1898. I can't speak to the writing.

But "could be"...

 

Some more info-

 

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/spanam/bssjh/shbrt-bssjh.htm

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As a flag collector, I can say the flag looks real 45 stars would be correct for 1898. I can't speak to the writing.

But "could be"...

 

Some more info-

 

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/spanam/bssjh/shbrt-bssjh.htm

 

thanks moderator ..i have a large hill to climb finding these names on the stars ..i feel ..... have you ever dealt with a old flag .... should i take it from the frame ..or let it live out its life there.....it looks like tissue paper and your advice as a flag man would be great ..........i will toss a email to the 10th cav and see what they can tell me .

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That tag looks like a museum inventory tag.

 

You've either got an old flag that has been doctored or one heck of a historical item. If it is legit, how the heck did it end up in Australia?

 

You might also try the US Army Center of Military History at http://www.history.army.mil/ or the National Museum of the US Army at http://thenmusa.org/

for additional information.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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The letters in the stars look to be written in sharpy pen. I am going by the fat dot at the top of the letters, specifically the H H, when the pen is first set down and the cloth would soak it up. I may be way off base and hope I am because it would be an awesome piece if it is all good. It could have been signed at a reunion or the like. So I guess I am still out to lunch on this one.

 

Bob

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The letters in the stars look to be written in sharpy pen. I am going by the fat dot at the top of the letters, specifically the H H, when the pen is first set down and the cloth would soak it up. I may be way off base and hope I am because it would be an awesome piece if it is all good. It could have been signed at a reunion or the like. So I guess I am still out to lunch on this one.

 

Bob

 

looks ...charcoal or pencil ..... its not pen of any type . i dont think i will take it out of the frame and with great care just incase

if pen it would soak through for shore ............off to the shed back soon

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well its out and its so thinn you can see through it ........well its pencil or somthing like pencil pen or ink would show through it as its tissue paper so thin ......attached is how thin it is its been in the frame since 1973 as it has usa 1973 and a scotts????? ALSO it is not a fadded on the backof the flag post-162447-0-25424100-1460076878.jpgpost-162447-0-05335900-1460076885.jpg

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One name in the stars looks like H.W.Bivens. Horace Wayman Bivins ( also spelled Bivens, Bivans or Bevans) was a Sgt in command of D Troop during the Battle of San Juan Hill.

 

The inscription on the stripes looks like "We're Fighting Bulls of the Buffaloes ...We got our Money on the Buffaloes"? If so, that is the regimental song of 10th Cav.

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One name in the stars looks like H.W.Bivens. Horace Wayman Bivins ( also spelled Bivens, Bivans or Bevans) was a Sgt in command of D Troop during the Battle of San Juan Hill.

 

The inscription on the stripes looks like "We're Fighting Bulls of the Buffaloes ...We got our Money on the Buffaloes"? If so, that is the regimental song of 10th Cav. t

thanks mate .. that is exactly what it says ...what song is it a company song i will google it one does say h.?bivins and the one up the top could be .... capt pershine we can make out names like PATSY . LONG . THOMAS . BIVANS . some are just scribble with no scense about them the top is capt persh???? any way thanks guys the 10th emailed back they would have no records and named from that time ...as they were mostly black and volunteers .............WHAT A SHAME

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I would lean toward a reunion type flag as well...There were higher quality flags with the star/stripes sewn on....This one perhaps was decorum in a hall and was signed and taken home as a souvenir....Bodes

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most of the flags i have found are printed ............. the flags in the histroy museums in amaeria that i google are all printed flag the same as this .any way would it have any value ..i collect scrap metal for a living not flags ...and were would i send it to get valued in the usa i googles printed 48star flags and found aa few in museums just like this one

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one more question would these colour soldiers have been educated some of these just look llike scribble ............hope this is not offensive to amyone .but i read they were not schooled so could not read or write .......post-162447-0-98770300-1460159645.jpg

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It would not be uncommon in that era for soldiers, both black and white, to have a "mark" rather than a signature. Back in that day, many people were lucky if they completed the 6th Grade, and even luckier if they went beyond.

Gil Burket
Omaha, NE
Specializing in Fakes and Reproductions
of the Vietnam War

burkcats@hotmail.com

 

"One is easily fooled by that which one loves."

 

Moliere: Tartuffe

 

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Hmmm. Flag looks old and correct for the period. A couple things, the enlistment rosters for the Army, including 9th and 10th Cavalry are pretty complete. Officers are much easier to research than enlisted men, regardless of unit. The 9th and 10th Cavalry Units were considered elite units and had some of the top awards for drill and ceremony so much so that members of the 9th cavalry were sent to West Point to teach cadets on cavalry drill.

 

Being a collector of this period, there are couple of things that bother me, the hand writing style is not what I would consider of the period. The reference of "Buffalo Soldiers" is a red flag to me, not something you would have seen on a unit memento. "Troop C, 10th Cav" would have been more convincing. Original period writing on cloth, wither it be lead pencil, India ink, bone or vegetable inks, charcoal, over time reacts with fibers of the cloth. An oxidation occurs that is very hard to fake

 

Starting in the 1970's demand for Indian Wars and late 19th Century American Militaria, particular those of famous units 7th, 9th, 10th Cavalry, 24th, 25th Infantry exploded in the US and abroad. Many buyers from Europe, the UK and elsewhere snatched up all associated material at collector shows here in the US. Since the material was quite rare to begin with, not just a few unscrupulous and down right dishonest dealers strove to meet the demand and turned out everything from very crude to very fine quality fakes. I know of one that would buy old material, old letterheads, and produce presentation type items including flags. Went so far as to acid etch names of known officers of the for mentioned units onto blades of original M1872 Cavalry swords. He would then type up letters of provenance using an antique type writer on a period letterhead! Some of these pieces are starting to come back into the market with 30-40 years of age.

My experience in examining original presentation pieces with impeccable provenance, they are of very high quality, including those that relate to enlisted men. These men were proud of their military service and the few remaining memento's show that esprit de corps.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Terry

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In the case of H W Bivins, who may be the name on one of the stars, he was college educated at Hampton Institute in Virginia. We know he could write his name because his name is scratched into the wall of the powder magazine of Fort Missoula in Montana which is on exhibit at the Northern Rockies Heritage Center. It would be interesting to compare the signature to the flag, I can't find a photo of the powder magazine signature.

 

The "Buffalo Soldiers" reference on the flag purportedly from 1898 doesn't raise a "red flag" for me. The regimental song lyrics referencing the Buffaloes dated back to 1885 and the Buffalo was on the official unit coat of arms by 1911 or earlier.

 

I agree with Terry's post above that the style of the handwriting is unusual for the time period. Penmanship was taught by rote repetition to even the least educated persons. Less literate people often try to make a painstakingly slow and distinct signature or at least block print a few letters of the first name, rather than the "rock star" scribbly signatures I see on the flag. Could this be an older flag signed by the cast of a film or tv production about the "Buffalo Soldiers" using their character names?

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there was a film .........how cool .......

..it would be hard to write on fabric i guess ..it would move around a lot ...this would not help .....

....i will try and find this video .. the flag migh be in the movie .

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