Early-WWII Navy Pilot Insignia, etc.?

[stratasfan]

I just got a set of wings that belonged to Navy Pilot Ensign Edward Sellstrom. I would like to do a display about him with the wings, but don't really know anything about Navy ranks, insignia, medals, etc. I found this one picture of him:

 

 

I also know that he earned the Navy Cross. Also, a destroyer was named for him in 1943 - the USS Sellstrom.

 

As far as I can see from his picture, I could maybe get shoulder rank pins (?) for my display. What would he have worn, insignia or patch/dui-wise? Also, can you get a Navy Cross medal?

 

As you can see, I'm starting from scratch and am hoping that someone can help me figure out what possibilities I'd have to put in a display! Thanks for any advice!

[RustyCanteen]

Hi,

 

 

The picture was taken while he was a cadet, so the cap and shoulder rank boards would both have been different from what he wore on active duty.

 

 

RC

[David Minton]

The photo looks like it was taken while he was an Aviation Cadet, and does not represent the uniform he would have worn as a Naval Aviator. He was an Ensign, equivalent to a Second Lieutenant in the other services. This being the case he would have worn gold rank bar, or Line Officer shoulder board (a star instead of a corps insignia) with a single line of gold lace, or a star above a single strand of cuff braid (depending on the uniform). There would have been five different Dress/Service Dress/Working uniforms (I think outside the scope of your question?).

 

Also, as an officer, he was a Naval Aviator. In the Navy at the time, Pilots were enlisted men who flew planes. There was an enlisted rating of Naval Aviation Pilot. At least this is my understanding.

 

ETA: RustCanteen beat me while I was typing my longer response.

[stratasfan]

Hi! Thanks! I didn't know that. The other pic I have is rather small, and he isn't wearing a jacket. He is third from the left in the back row.

 

 

On the military tombstone request card, he is listed as Ensign, Fighter Squadron 3, US Naval Reserve.

 

So . . . since I don't have a picture to help, what would you say he would have worn? I've had to do this with my Uncle in the AAF, as I only had a training picture of him, too. Thanks!

 

P.S. I love your Sherlock Holmes quote! What a fabulously sound statement!

 

[stratasfan]

Well, you beat me while I was replying to the first post!

 

What is a shoulder board? Very interesting about pilot v. aviator. I didn't know that. I'm always interested in uniform info, even if I won't make a uniform display. Five different uniforms? That seems like a lot of variety. What is the difference between "dress" and "service dress". I thought there was only one type of dress uniform. Oops.

 

 

The photo looks like it was taken while he was an Aviation Cadet, and does not represent the uniform he would have worn as a Naval Aviator. He was an Ensign, equivalent to a Second Lieutenant in the other services. This being the case he would have worn gold rank bar, or Line Officer shoulder board (a star instead of a corps insignia) with a single line of gold lace, or a star above a single strand of cuff braid (depending on the uniform). There would have been five different Dress/Service Dress/Working uniforms (I think outside the scope of your question?).

Also, as an officer, he was a Naval Aviator. In the Navy at the time, Pilots were enlisted men who flew planes. There was an enlisted rating of Naval Aviation Pilot. At least this is my understanding.

ETA: RustCanteen beat me while I was typing my longer response.

 

[Allan H.]

Ensign Sellstrom would have been entitled to the Navy Cross, American Defense medal with "Fleet" bar, American Campaign medal, Asiatic-Pacific Campaign medal with two battle stars, and the World War II Victory Medal. He would have also been entitled to wear a Navy pilot wing.

 

Allan

[pararaftanr2]

Hi Stratasfan,

I haven't done any research on your Ensign, but from the group photo you provided, it is clear, as a member of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3) in 1942, he rubbed elbows with two of the most famous Naval Aviators of WW2. The squadron commander, seated in the middle of the front row, is LCDR John "Jimmy" Thach. Seated second from right, is LT Edward "Butch" O'Hare. Google those names and you'll see what I mean.

Best regards, Paul

[stratasfan]

Hi! Thanks! I didn't know that. The name sounded familiar, so I went and looked through the newspaper articles I saved about Ensign Sellstrom and one is about an article that Thach wrote.

 

 

I went and found a Colliers article from dec 1942 - https://www.unz.org/Pub/Colliers-1942dec12-00016

 

However, I can't find Sellstrom mentioned, so it must mean another article. So far no success on that. O'Hare. That is really cool! We knew someone who was an air traffic controller at O'Hare airport. Fun to see his picture!

[stratasfan]

OK! I went looking for ensign shoulder boards with one star. As always . . . multiple types! Are one of these the type he would have had?

 

[stratasfan]

Hi, Allen! Always there with the info! Question . . . would the American Campaign medal, American Defense (sans bar) and the Asiatic-Pacific medal be the same type as I put in the display for my Air Corps Uncle who served in the Aleutians? I know some medals have a completely different Naval version (e.g. Good Conduct, Occupation). Also, do Navy uniforms allow wearing of medal ribbons? Pardon my total lack of knowledge in this area! I'm afraid when it has come to my WWII Naval studying, it has been almost entirely British!

 

Also, are you allowed to buy a Navy Cross? I don't even know what it looks like, guess I better go find a picture! I think it would be fun to put one in the display, if it is one that you are allowed to buy.

 

 

Ensign Sellstrom would have been entitled to the Navy Cross, American Defense medal with "Fleet" bar, American Campaign medal, Asiatic-Pacific Campaign medal with two battle stars, and the World War II Victory Medal. He would have also been entitled to wear a Navy pilot wing.

 

Allan

 

[Allan H.]

Elizabeth,

 

The American Defense, American Campaign, Asiatic Pacific Campaign and the WWII Victory medals were the same for all branches of the military. These ribbons were authorized to be worn by the navy and all other branches with them only being ribbons prior to 1947 and then full medals after the war.

 

You can find modern Navy Cross medals for around $40-50 if you look for them. A WWII wrap brooch example will cost significantly more.

 

The ensign shoulder boards look like WWII examples. The grey boards were worn with the grey uniform. Most officers wearing grey were assigned to ships. While Ensign Sellstrom might have had a grey uniform, it would be more likely that he wore aviation green (no boards- just cuff rank), whites (where the blue boards were worn) or the service dress blues which also had cuff stripes for rank. Collar rank would have been in the form of a gold bar.

 

Allan

 

I hope this helps.

[stratasfan]

Thanks! This brings two more questions for you. Easy one first . . . are the "blue" boards the ones that I posted that look black? If so, he could have worn shoulder boards?

 

Second . . . do you mean that those campaign medals were only made as "medals" post war? So they would only have had ribbons during WWII, never the actual medals?

[BROBS]

Thanks! This brings two more questions for you. Easy one first . . . are the "blue" boards the ones that I posted that look black? If so, he could have worn shoulder boards?

 

Second . . . do you mean that those campaign medals were only made as "medals" post war? So they would only have had ribbons during WWII, never the actual medals?

1. Yes the blue boards look black.. really dark navy blue. I have a group to a USN aviator and it came with grey boards and a bullion wing.. so they did wear the greys.

 

2. All the medals came out immediately postwar for the most part. So during WW2 it would have been a ribbon bar only.

 

great set of stuff it seems!

-Brian

[David Minton]

Ensign Sellstrom died in 1942, while the Navy Working Gray Uniform wasn't adopted until 1943, so gray shoulder boards wouldn't be appropriate for the display.

[stratasfan]

Grand! That is information I love to hear. I don't want to go and get something that couldn't have been correct! Thanks! (Anyway, I'm happy . . . I like the blue ones! They look so Navy-ish. )

 

 

Ensign Sellstrom died in 1942, while the Navy Working Gray Uniform wasn't adopted until 1943, so gray shoulder boards wouldn't be appropriate for the display.

 

[David Minton]

For the shoulder boards, if you want to be correct you want flat rather than curved boards.

 

If you are looking for things to fill out a display you could also add a large, small, or both sizes of officer cap device.

 

The only things that would have been worn on Service Dress Blues would have been wings, and ribbons/medals (depending on occasion). Rank would be indicated by cuff braid, without any collar pins.

 

Khaki uniform would have had the shoulder boards instead of cuff braid, and had miniature rank pins on the collar.

[Justin B.]

Very interesting about pilot v. aviator.

"Pilot" was was already a nautical term, so the Navy went with "naval aviator." A little later they came up with a separate title for enlisted aircraft pilots which was "naval aviation pilot."

 

Five different uniforms? That seems like a lot of variety. What is the difference between "dress" and "service dress". I thought there was only one type of dress uniform. Oops.

It's a good question. "Service dress" before WW2 was what officers wore for ordinary, everyday duty. It was basically equal to a business suit. Which seems dressy now, but think about old pictures from the '40s, men wore a suit and tie and hat in public all the time. The service dress was whites when it was warm, blues the rest of the time.

 

In WW1 aviators started wearing more practical green and khaki Marine-type uniforms. Those were "working" uniforms, they weren't supposed to wear them unless they were working in or around aircraft. Just before WW2 the khaki working uniform was extended to all officers. It had a coat with shoulder boards and black tie. You could take the coat off, but not the tie. Again, it was supposed to be a "working" uniform for warm weather; the coat was cotton and could go through a ship's laundry. The peacetime navy could be pretty picky about that kind of thing, for instance an officer aboard ship might be expected to change out of "working" into "service dress" before going to dinner.

 

Then the war happened. Practicality ruled the day, and in the Pacific, the working khaki quickly became the standard everyday uniform for officers, and the tie was no longer required when the coat was not worn. "Service dress white" disappeared except for formal occasions.

 

During the war, the Navy officially changed the color of the working dress from khaki to gray. This was unpopular and the decision was reversed after the war, but there was so much khaki already made that gray never took over as planned anyway.

 

Since most of the time officers were wearing the open-collared khaki shirt and trousers, the full khaki uniform with coat and tie began to be used more as a dressier uniform itself. Then officers began to get sharper-looking versions made of lightweight wool, dry-clean only. After the war, in 1948, that became another "service dress" uniform, and the wash khakis without the coat was khaki working. Service dress khaki became the warm weather "business suit" uniform, and the whites, even though they were still called "service dress," were pretty much still exclusively for formal occasions. Service dress khaki was eliminated in 1975.

 

Meanwhile in WW2 the blue service dress continued to be an "everyday" uniform in colder areas.

 

The pre-war uniforms called "full dress," "dress" and "undress" were very formal variations which had originated in the 19th century and used a long frock coat. They were seldom worn even in peacetime. After 1941, they were suspended and never returned. Formal evening uniforms were also suspended for the war, but did make a comeback in the '50s.

 

The uniforms an officer was required to have in WW2 were:

 

1. Service dress blue

2. Service dress white

3. Working uniform (khaki or gray)

4. Aviation green working uniform if an aviator.

 

There was also an optional tropical uniform with shorts in khaki or white. They weren't too commonly worn.

 

Simpler terminology was used for enlisted uniforms: Dress, undress and working. The last two were the same but older clothing could be worn for working. Because they dressed like officers, chief petty officers had khaki/gray working uniforms, too.

 

The only things that would have been worn on Service Dress Blues would have been wings, and ribbons/medals (depending on occasion).

No medals on service blues till 1954. The wings on wartime service blues would be the gold embroidered type, and the ribbons were usually sewn on as well.

 

Justin B.

[Allan H.]

Elizabeth,

 

Justin gave you a very nice rundown on the uniforms etc. Thanks Justin!

 

If you are only wanting to represent what Ensign Sellstrom wore at the time of his death, you are probably looking at his aviator's badge and possibly the American Defense ribbon. The Navy Cross wasn't formally approved until after his death. The only details that I could find on Sellstrom was that he died in a crash, so he probably didn't rate a Purple Heart. The Navy didn't hand out Purple Hearts for aviators killed in accidents. If he had been in the AAF, he probably would have gotten one.

 

Allan

[stratasfan]

Thanks all! Came back after my Easter break and found loads of info! that rundown on uniforms is amazing and I might have to print it out so I can re-read it!

 

I don't think I am going to only have what he wore at his death, as I want a patch from the USS Sellstrom. I might end up doing a Navy Cross, too, as it is a cool story. What would the hat badges look like. Also, Justin B. mentioned something I'd not even thought of. What would the embroidered wings look like? That might be a cool thing!

[Justin B.]

I'm glad you're finding the info in the thread useful!

The embroidered wings are generally referred to as "bullion wings" by collectors. Because of the laundering thing again, white and khaki uniforms had removable metal pin wings but the wool blue and green uniforms were supposed to have them embroidered and sewn on. There is a big thread on them here:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/103919-wwi-to-wwii-usn-bullion-wings/

 

 

The cap badge would be the standard officer's eagle, shield and crossed anchors. Here is a page with the officer ranks and corresponding insignia and cap badges.

 

You have a very worthwhile project going, best of luck with it.

 

Justin B.