Advice on M7 and M8 Scabbard with hanger

[equitis]

I really need an M7 bayonet to complete my example of of a Vietnam era M-1956 webbing load out (well, actually one of two; an early pattern one with the horizontal weave belt, or a late pattern one with the vertical weave belt), and spotted this example being sold by a dealer here in the UK, for what appears a reasonable price:

 

http://dbgmilitaria.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=3879

 

However, I have a couple of concerns. Firstly, I think I've read somewhere tha MILPAR marked bayonets are commonly reproduced for the collectors market, and I've no idea if I'm looking at the real thing or not.

 

Secondly, the scabbard is marked M8, not M8A1, but has a hanger like the M8A1. My understanding is that this can be a legitimate variant, but would it have been an item issued in Vietnam?

 

The scabbard is less of an issue, as M8A1 examples are reasonably easy to get on UK Ebay, but I'd really appreciate some advice on both the bayonet and scabbard before I make a decision.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

[jw517]

They don't belong together at all. Colt had their own special scabbard with a textured finish.

It's WWII . Can't see the Colt logo very well but appears a bit odd. Maybe someone else can offer more .

[jw517]

Thought you were talking about a Milpar,this is a Colt .

[jw517]

Oh!,,, now I see! You have yourself a put together fake there. Don't buy it.

[SKIPH]

Just double checked Gary's book. A few early MILPARs were stamped Colt on the blades, page 121. This could actually be rare. SKIP

[jw517]

I did not know that. Never mind.

[thorin6]

The scabbard is WWII, the bayonet, if correct, would be relatively rare. The runout doesn't look quite right but that may just be the photo.

[Misfit 45]

First of all, this is a Milpar M7, first contract. It has the "chevron" mark on the pommel consistent with Milpar first contract. Second, it is marked with the Colt logo that is consistent with the very few Colt marked Milpars. It is a very scarce M7 bayonet. The logo looks a little crude, however, again it is consistent with several photos I have of this bayonet. The scabbard is a WWII M8 scabbard that was converted to the M8A1 version in the 1950s. It is not clear whether Milpar would have delivered their bayonet with an included scabbard, therefore, any scabbard on hand may have been issued with this bayonet. BUY IT!

Marv

[sactroop]

What Marv said!

[jw517]

Ya ,that's what I meant.

[equitis]

Hi All,

 

Many, many thanks for your input and advice on this - it's been most enlightening and it did lead me find some images on the web of these rare blades which to my untrained eye looked very similar to the one for sale.

 

I have now "done the deal". I look forward to seein it in the next few days.

 

Best regards,

 

Iain

[sactroop]

Lain, I hope you can post some more pictures of your new acquisition after it arrives. As you can tell from some of the earlier responses this is one of the M7 variants that can stand some more documenting.

[thorin6]

First of all, this is a Milpar M7, first contract. It has the "chevron" mark on the pommel consistent with Milpar first contract. Second, it is marked with the Colt logo that is consistent with the very few Colt marked Milpars. It is a very scarce M7 bayonet. The logo looks a little crude, however, again it is consistent with several photos I have of this bayonet. The scabbard is a WWII M8 scabbard that was converted to the M8A1 version in the 1950s. It is not clear whether Milpar would have delivered their bayonet with an included scabbard, therefore, any scabbard on hand may have been issued with this bayonet. BUY IT!

Marv

 

Why would it be an M8 scabbard that was converted into an M8A1 in the 1950s? It is my understanding that after the M8A1s were ordered in WWII that Beckwith continued to use up the unused throats marked with M8. I know you can tell from the heat lot number, but I didn't see it in the advertisement, although I might have missed something.

 

[sactroop]

The retaining strap is of the post WW2 type on the webbing. Female snap is on the right instead of the left.

[Misfit 45]

The snap is also larger than the WWII snap button.

Marv

[Misfit 45]

Hi again,

For the sake of accuracy, I think I need to include some more information.

Gary Cunningham's book, "U.S. Knife Bayonets and Scabbards", does not specifically show an M8 scabbard, with a B/N number earlier than 2/2, which has been converted to M8A1 status. Plus, there is a mention that the Victory Plastics scabbard (V.P. Co.) changed their strap position (to right over left) and used the larger button, but not till about 1960. Therefore, I have to admit that Gary's book does not mention whether the M8 conversions to M8A1 version, included the different strap set up or not. However, the few that I have examined all have had the larger snap and the left over right strap. As far as identifying a post war conversion of the M8 goes, if it does not have the "new" strap set up, then, as Gary said in the book, "The only way to tell that this has been done is that the B N number under the top plate will be less than 2/2."

I would like to ask equitis to be sure to let us know the BN number when he gets his prize M7.

Marv

[sactroop]

I took the liberty of posting these two images from Gary's CD.

This shows the first contract V.P. Co. M8A1 1953.

 

 

It shows that the strap still uses the left over right configuration, but has switched to the larger snap.

[porterkids]

Oh!,,, now I see! You have yourself a put together fake there. Don't buy it.

 

Not at all a fake. In fact, it is hard to find variation of the M7. I just purchased one this past weekend.

[equitis]

The bayonet has arrived. I'll post some pictures later, but my initial impression is that it is a mint example; never been sharpened, and still evidence of packing grease in hard to reach places.

 

As for the M8 marked scabbard, I would say this has seen some light use. The back is marked "VP" with "9" below, which I presume refers to Victory Plastics. The throat is marked with the batch number "1/3". The hanger is non magnetic metal, unpainted and silver in colour.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

[Misfit 45]

I'm glad you are happy with this scarce bayonet. The scabbard belt hook is likely brass. The BN number is earlier than 2/2 as expected. I'm looking forward to the pictures.

Marv

[equitis]

Finally got around to taking the pictures. I've put the MILPAR next to my Imperial Colt for reference. Also, on closer inspection I'll have to say that it's not mint, but unissued condition, as it has some very light corrosion on the hilt (it's quite visible in the image of the hilt).

 

MILPAR is top

 

MILPAR on left (note that the Imperial doesn't have the chevron)

 

MILPAR on right in the following two images

 

MILPAR is bottom. This is probably the biggest difference I've spotted. Notice the Imperial has a retained nut, whilst the MILPAR has the grip threaded,

[equitis]

A few more pictures of the bayonet:

 

Imperial for reference:

[Misfit 45]

A few things I notice (because I'm specifically looking for them). 1, notice the two holes in the cross guard against the blade of the Imperial/Colt. The Milpar does not have them. 2. Notice the shape of the levers on the latch plate. The Imperial levers stick out farther than the Milpar. 3. Notice the "M" on the "M7" mark. Each one is different. 3. You already noticed the threaded bushing in the grip panel. 4. If you remove the grips, you will notice the hole where the cross guard retainer passes through the tang. The Imperial/Colt has a square hole. I suspect the Milpar has a round hole. 5. The peen on the two M7s look to be different. Can't tell how much different. Looks like a very nice Milpar/Colt. I have not yet had the chance to own one....maybe someday.

Marv

[equitis]

I also have pictures of the M8 scabbard, also using the M8A1 from the Colt Imperial as a cross reference.

 

 

The webbing is becoming slightly detached from the attaching rivet, so I would say the scabbard has been well used and not contemporary to the bayonet.

 

Given the Batch Number (B 1/3/ N) I assume that this is a WW2 manufactured sheath subsequently modified to M8A1 standard, presumably sometime during the 1950s, as suggested in Gary Cunninghams Bayonet Points #18, as it has the later type right over left strap. However, unlike his example it doesn't have the MRT (Mildew Resistant Treatment) stamp on the back.

 

I'll probably try and find a good, early M8A1 scabbard to pair up with the Colt Milpar.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

[sactroop]

I have my doubts that a M8 could rightly be considered incorrect for any of the bayonets, especially with the updated webbing. I can only imagine that it wouldn't be uncommon for some type of repair process to be in place.