cutiger83 Posted March 24, 2016 Share #76 Posted March 24, 2016 This is the current memorial to him at the County Courthouse in Ellis County OK. This is where I understand the medals were located. Can you share the information... I agree. Can you share the information? It sounds like they may have been at a court house and not a museum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted March 24, 2016 Share #77 Posted March 24, 2016 The Gott medals were, at one time, supposedly donated (on loan?) to the Kirkpartick Museum in Oklahoma City, OK. The Kirkpartick Museum is now part of the Omniplex Museum, OKC. Apparently a family member retrieved the medals. Not sure how they got from the family to the UK. This information is from 2009 time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted March 24, 2016 Share #78 Posted March 24, 2016 Based on information I received from the person who runs the website http://www.ww1.org/ , the medals were retrieved from the Museum by Gott's Niece, but were then put on display at the Courthouse. I have known the person who runs that website for many years and he has devoted a lot of time researching Gott's plane. It was a big surprise to him that the medals were for sale in England. The Niece who retrieved the medals from the museum and had them put on display at the Courthouse is now deceased, but there is still one more Niece who is still alive who he also knows personally. It took me a while to connect the dots that Gott was a member of the plane that was featured in my friends web page. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLEV2252 Posted March 29, 2016 Share #79 Posted March 29, 2016 Hi,still looking for a buyer on this rare grouping and the ebay relisted number is 182067211416.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLEV2252 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #80 Posted March 31, 2016 Hi guys,unfortunately the owner of this rare group has now decided to remove it from ebay and for sale else where due to attention from the US FBI.I have now returned this to the present owner much to the relief of my wife who freaked out after we received a phone call earlier today from an FBI agent which frightened the life out of her.Apparently the US authorities have laws that think it better to loose sight of this irreplaceable piece of US history rather than let someone pay a pathetic sum in the big scheme of things to get it back to the US where it belongs.Go figure,who knows the workings of the minds of these people.I rather suspect that this group will end up some where in Europe when the owner travels there during the summer,how sad.C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbUSWM Posted March 31, 2016 Share #81 Posted March 31, 2016 Sad story all the way around... from his untimely death to his artifacts. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach Posted March 31, 2016 Share #82 Posted March 31, 2016 You are in the UK mate, if the FBI comes calling just show them the middle finger and slam the door ;-) I don't think they are even allowed to contact you without first asking Scotland Yard for permission. Here in Australia there have been atleast 3 good original named MoH's for sale including a ACW one and a Vietnam war one and I have never herd the FBI being involved in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLEV2252 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #83 Posted March 31, 2016 Thanks,and i'm not sure what it's got to do with Scotland Yard they also are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted March 31, 2016 Share #84 Posted March 31, 2016 Hi guys,unfortunately the owner of this rare group has now decided to remove it from ebay and for sale else where due to attention from the US FBI.I have now returned this to the present owner much to the relief of my wife who freaked out after we received a phone call earlier today from an FBI agent which frightened the life out of her.Apparently the US authorities have laws that think it better to loose sight of this irreplaceable piece of US history rather than let someone pay a pathetic sum in the big scheme of things to get it back to the US where it belongs.Go figure,who knows the workings of the minds of these people.I rather suspect that this group will end up some where in Europe when the owner travels there during the summer,how sad.C'est la vie. Unless the owner is caught taking the Medal out of Honor out of the United States. You cannot buy, sell, export, import, or replicate the Medal of Honor. And the reason the current owner is not willing to donate this historical medal set to a deserving museum is ..... MONEY! How sad is that! I am also not sure how you define "pathetic sum", but $30 large is A LOT OF MONEY. Lets see if we can do a quick financial analysis of this group: WWII cased Purple Heart, slot brooch, with service ribbon (missing lapel pin), named to KIA USAAC officer - Retail value: $400 WWII cased Air Medal, slot brooch, with service ribbon and lapel pin, and 3 oak leaf clusters, named to KIA USAAC officer - Retail value: $150 PH and AM together and named to same officer, add 10% of total. $400 + $150 = $550 plus 10% = $550 + $55 = $605 OK, so lets be conservative, and call these two medals together $700. So, the "price" of this WWII Medal of Honor is $30,000 - $700 = $29,300. Now, named US Medals of Honor come up for sale so seldom that it is hard to put a real value on this medal, but I do recall a Civil War named Medal of Honor selling for $20,000 a couple of years ago (in Europe). This style Medal of Honor, in the original case, but not named or attributed, sells in the $4000 range (estimate based on sales of real cases on Ebay and medals on foreign web sites). I do not know the circumstances of the owner of the medals. I hope all is well, and that they are not contemplating the sale of these medals because of desperate circumstances. If that is the case, there are other avenues of assistance. Value the set at $30,000, donate it to a museum, take the tax advantage, and know that you have done something good and noble. Right now, it is hard to see the nobility in this situation. Their property...their decision...our (US historical) loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbUSWM Posted March 31, 2016 Share #85 Posted March 31, 2016 The problem of course is that in the U.S. the MOH has no value... so usually the museum values the donation as $0. I have heard that there are some apprasiers who have successfully arranged a value to the donation. When I helped a MOH family donate their MOH to a museum, it was donated a zero value. They too were poor and needed the money but decided to donate the medal anyway. Those are the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted March 31, 2016 Share #86 Posted March 31, 2016 The problem of course is that in the U.S. the MOH has no value... so usually the museum values the donation as $0. I have heard that there are some apprasiers who have successfully arranged a value to the donation. When I helped a MOH family donate their MOH to a museum, it was donated a zero value. They too were poor and needed the money but decided to donate the medal anyway. Those are the rules. I suspect that THIS aspect of the MOH is pretty easy to deal with. One of the "conditions" of the donation could be a fair market valuation. I don't anticipate a lot of resistance on the part of the museum. There are LOTS of museums, etc. that would love to have this group. Because there is no "legal" market in the US does not mean that there is no market value. Base the value on comparable sales of similar medals overseas. There is an Australian website that "says" the value of a named WWII to Vietnam US Medal of Honor is $250,000 to $300,000. I think that is a stretch, but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLEV2252 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #87 Posted March 31, 2016 I would like to say this medal group could have been bought for less than the ebay start price if a buyer had offered a sensible offer.The top pice was only that high as ebay makes the seller put the buy it now pride at 40% higher than the start price.i still think an offer below £13000 ( $19000) approx is a fair price. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbUSWM Posted March 31, 2016 Share #88 Posted March 31, 2016 Might work. Like I said, the MOH family I helped donated at zero value and left it at that. I have heard of others donating at "market value" whatever that means but I do not know how the IRS viewed such a donation. It's complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #89 Posted March 31, 2016 It is a painful situation. If the FBI made a call to London about this I wonder what kind of phone call the family member got!? I suspect if they are planing a trip overseas they will get some unwanted attention at the Airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbUSWM Posted March 31, 2016 Share #90 Posted March 31, 2016 With all the exposure on this MOH, I'm not sure the FBI had a choice but to look into it at some level. They have been reasonable to deal with for me in the past. I'm sure the FBI does not want to waste their time on such things. It's just a difficult and sad situation all the way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #91 Posted March 31, 2016 much to the relief of my wife who freaked out after we received a phone call earlier today from an FBI agent which frightened the life out of her. I find it rather hard to believe that the FBI would directly call a citizen of another country without either going thru that countries officials or doing it in person. The FBI does not just pick up the phone and call someone directly. There are many scams related to people posing over the phone as an FBI agent. Tomorrow, I will ask someone who worked directly with the FBI if this would ever happen. ...Kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted March 31, 2016 Share #92 Posted March 31, 2016 Unless the owner is caught taking the Medal out of Honor out of the United States. You cannot buy, sell, export, import, or replicate the Medal of Honor. And the reason the current owner is not willing to donate this historical medal set to a deserving museum is ..... MONEY! How sad is that! I am also not sure how you define "pathetic sum", but $30 large is A LOT OF MONEY. Lets see if we can do a quick financial analysis of this group: WWII cased Purple Heart, slot brooch, with service ribbon (missing lapel pin), named to KIA USAAC officer - Retail value: $400 WWII cased Air Medal, slot brooch, with service ribbon and lapel pin, and 3 oak leaf clusters, named to KIA USAAC officer - Retail value: $150 PH and AM together and named to same officer, add 10% of total. $400 + $150 = $550 plus 10% = $550 + $55 = $605 OK, so lets be conservative, and call these two medals together $700. So, the "price" of this WWII Medal of Honor is $30,000 - $700 = $29,300. Now, named US Medals of Honor come up for sale so seldom that it is hard to put a real value on this medal, but I do recall a Civil War named Medal of Honor selling for $20,000 a couple of years ago (in Europe). This style Medal of Honor, in the original case, but not named or attributed, sells in the $4000 range (estimate based on sales of real cases on Ebay and medals on foreign web sites). I do not know the circumstances of the owner of the medals. I hope all is well, and that they are not contemplating the sale of these medals because of desperate circumstances. If that is the case, there are other avenues of assistance. Value the set at $30,000, donate it to a museum, take the tax advantage, and know that you have done something good and noble. Right now, it is hard to see the nobility in this situation. Their property...their decision...our (US historical) loss. Ed,A Air Medal/ Purple Heart pair to a MOH awardee could bring as much as $3k to $5k... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY Militaria Posted March 31, 2016 Share #93 Posted March 31, 2016 I find it rather hard to believe that the FBI would directly call a citizen of another country without either going thru that countries officials or doing it in person. The FBI does not just pick up the phone and call someone directly. There are many scams related to people posing over the phone as an FBI agent. Tomorrow, I will ask someone who worked directly with the FBI if this would ever happen. ...Kat They prefer to meet you in person first, but will certainly call if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #94 Posted March 31, 2016 They prefer to meet you in person first, but will certainly call if necessary. I am talking about the FBI calling directly to a citizen of another country. I find that highly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted March 31, 2016 Share #95 Posted March 31, 2016 Thanks for the update on value Robert. This is not my wheelhouse, but I know that some of y'all would have a better idea of value. OK, $5,000 for the PH / AM pair. That leaves the MOH at the difference. Now I understand that the whole set could have been bought for about $19,000. $14,000 for the MOH seems reasonable. But the problem now is that the Gott medal set has gotten so much attention that if it shows up anywhere, it is going to be an issue. This MOH is on the CMOHS and FBI radar now. If the FBI is willing to contact someone in a foreign country, image what sort of contacts the FBI has made to family members. The FBI is not going to have a lot of problem determining who retrieved the MOH from the museum where it was, and determining who now "owns" the medal set. And yes, the FBI does spend time on things like things like this. FBI Agent Thomas Cotton spent a good deal of time investigating Medal of Honor issues until his retirement. I cannot recall the name of the agent that now handles MOH issues. I wish it were different, that this is reality in today's world. Here is a link that discusses the tax implication issues of an MOH. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiE3Jan-urLAhUKOyYKHcmJDEkQFgg0MAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fpeterjreilly%2F2013%2F09%2F12%2Fchamberlain-medal-of-honor-raises-tax-question-can-you-value-what-cannot-be-sold%2F&usg=AFQjCNHqRMhhaAdscPLMDeB92qtPeXVxxg&sig2=mT66KvIPp3igpmAZDJvzMg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted March 31, 2016 Share #96 Posted March 31, 2016 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiE3Jan-urLAhUKOyYKHcmJDEkQFgg0MAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Fpeterjreilly%2F2013%2F09%2F12%2Fchamberlain-medal-of-honor-raises-tax-question-can-you-value-what-cannot-be-sold%2F&usg=AFQjCNHqRMhhaAdscPLMDeB92qtPeXVxxg&sig2=mT66KvIPp3igpmAZDJvzMg Thanks for the link Ed, I was shocked to see an entity value an item at $0 because it was illegal to sell and then have the IRS value it for $65 MILLION! Almost makes me feel good about the IRS, ALMOST. Still learning from these discussions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbUSWM Posted March 31, 2016 Share #97 Posted March 31, 2016 Great article! I have heard of one successful valuation of a MOH with the IRS but this Forbes article brings new clarity to the situation. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY Militaria Posted March 31, 2016 Share #98 Posted March 31, 2016 I am talking about the FBI calling directly to a citizen of another country. I find that highly unlikely. LE can and will call anyone, anywhere (even outside the US if necessary) to obtain information relevant to an investigation. It is how crimes are solved and puzzles pieced back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted April 1, 2016 Share #99 Posted April 1, 2016 LE can and will call anyone, anywhere (even outside the US if necessary) to obtain information relevant to an investigation. It is how crimes are solved and puzzles pieced back together. I agree that they can and will call anyone outside of the US. I am just saying that I believe they need to go thru that country's LE rather than calling directly. I could be wrong but I believe there is a protocol when dealing with foreigners. I am still trying to confirm the protocol. If someone called me claiming to be LE from another country, I would not say a word until I confirmed with my local LE. ...Kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY Militaria Posted April 1, 2016 Share #100 Posted April 1, 2016 What you believe in this case is wrong. LE protocol is to call whomever you need, unless prohibited by department/agency policy. I assume you are referring to is US State Dept. Protocol concerning arresting foreign nationals and mandatory vs. elective reporting requirements to their consulates. In this case, I am betting the Agent was seeking cursory information relative to the investigation from the above member, and it would be a waste of time and resources to coordinate with local LE, etc. to arrange an in person meeting. Calling is not always the preferred method of reaching out to people, but sometimes it is the only method available. If you get such a call and are in doubt, call your local LE to confirm. As a professional courtesy, before calling elsewhere out of my jurisdiction I let local LE know of my intentions. For some reason, you are assuming that this didn't occur here. Also, keep in mind that the FBI has dozens of attache offices all over the world. Source of Knowledge: Law enforcement experience. Justin Edit: There really isn't anything else worth discussing in this thread and it has gone off course with a number of opinions. I am locking it for the time being. Any further conversation can continue between members through the PM system. If anyone has concerns about how a government agency is handling business, please contact them and express your concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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