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1st army patch ID


mccooper
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AustinO-

 

Many thanks for the pdf regarding the duties of the 3rd. Very pleased to be able to add it to my file on the 3rd. Kinda looks like they borrowed the 1st Army ordnance patch and dropped the flaming bomb. Thanks to you all on the Forum who answered my query - I'm getting hooked on 1st Army patches (and don't want to be saved). All the best,

 

mccooper

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  • 2 weeks later...
world war I nerd

Austin O's post (No. 24) which explained that the 3rd Pioneer Infantry was charged with supplying all of the heavy artillery's ammunition, reminded me that ammunition and ordnance, from pistol cartridges to heavy artillery shells in the AEF, was under the domain of the Ordnance Department.

 

Therefore it would seem more than plausible that Ordnance personnel would have been attached to the 3rd Pioneer Infantry in order to train the pioneer infantrymen and to ensure that the shells were properly handled.

 

This might explain why the same 1st Army shoulder patch shows up on both Ordnance Department and Pioneer Infantry service coats.

 

Attached are images from a previous AVG online catalog of a 3rd Heavy Ordnance Repair Shop service coat identified to Pvt. Hugo R. Apltz or Apitz (its spelled both ways on his dog tags). Note the use of the same "U.S. 3" collar disc as worn by the men of the 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment.

 

PS, I recall reading in something about the WW I Pioneer Infantry that the "Pioneer Infantry did all of the jobs that the Infantry wouldn't do and that the Engineers were too lazy to do."

post-5143-0-26607300-1459309329.jpg

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world war I nerd

The bottom quote from the above post was supposed to read: "The Pioneer Infantry did all the jobs that the Infantry wouldn't do and the jobs that the Engineers were to lazy to do."

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Not to add to the confusion, but Hugo R Apitz was from Minnesota, and is listed on the 3rd Pioneer's roster. I wonder if the 3rd Heavy Ordnance Repair Shop is a miss-identification as everything on the uniform (besides the ordnance disc) points to Pioneer. Its also possible that the ordnance disc is not original to the uniform (note the difference in wear).

 

I'll be in the Minnesota war records in the next couple weeks and will try to remember to pull Apitz's service record to see what it says.

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world war I nerd

That's interesting that Apitz turned out to be a member of the 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment. That makes me wonder if the 3rd Pioneer Infantry had an Ordnance Section or at least an ordnance repair shop ... Or this could be one of those cases where another unit, like the 3rd Heavy Ordnance Repair Shop, was assigned to the 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment and because of its affiliation was authorized to wear the insignia of the 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment.

 

The 2nd Infantry Division had a number of ancillary support units (bakery, laundry, etc.) attached to it who were allowed to wear that division's star and Indian head insignia.

 

Does your history of the 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment show a breakdown of the Regiment's tables & organization or mention if any support units were detailed to it?

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No, the history is barely three pages in a book on Massachusetts in the WW (would be glad to send it to you if you'd like a copy). After April 1919 the 3rd apparently provided rail security around Coblenz to counter rampant thefts. The did this until they returned home, no mention of Ordnance Repair units in the history.

 

The roster of the 3rd was published in a local newspaper and is transcribed in PDF online: http://www.theusgenweb.org/mn/hennepin/pdf-files/onthemexican.pdf

Apitz is listed as being a member of Company H.

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Hi,



AustinO sent me scans of Apitz's service record a couple years back. He was inducted at St. Peter, MN on 25 July 1918. He was one of 9,498 Minnesotans sent to Camp Wadsworth, SC, between 22-26 July. Most of these men were assigned to the 3rd Pioneer Infantry, 54th Pioneer Infantry, and 4th Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Battalion. Apitz was initially processed through Company I, 4th Pioneer Infantry. He was transferred to Company I, 3rd Pioneer Infantry, in August and sailed with the regiment on 30 August 1918. The transport arrived at Brest, France, on 13 September. Apitz participated with his regiment in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive from 26 September to 11 November. He returned to the US on 23 July 1919 and was discharged at Camp Dodge, Iowa, on 30 July.



Pioneer infantry regiments were organized as regular infantry without the specialized weapons units (machine gun company, one pounder section, mortar section, etc.). Like Apitz, the majority of the enlisted men in these regiment had only been in the service a little over a month before they sailed for France. They acted as unskilled labor for engineer regiments behind the lines. Most of the regiments engaged in road construction during the Argonne Offensive. Note that the 3rd arrived in France on 13 September and participated in the opening of the Argonne Offensive on the 26th. The pioneers received no specialized training and learned on the job.



I am not especially concerned by the ordnance disk. The regiment handled munitions during the majority of its time in France and Apitz could have easily picked up an ordnance disk while overseas. There is simply no way of knowing when it was placed on the uniform.



I have seen the First Army SSI with shell and ordnance bomb identified as First Army Mobile Ordnance Repair Shop, but cannot provide a source.



hist3891

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After reading about the 3rd's service from Austin's post I remembered this uniform. Perhaps it's another patch variation for the unit. Has anyone ever seen one like this?

post-359-0-60529000-1459471458.jpg

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Just got message off to WWI nerd and I'll send him a copy of Memorandum 45 & 46 from Dec.14th, 1918 which illustrates the official or authorised versions of the First Army SSI for this period, and it's version of the Pioneer Infantry is totally different than what we all accept as the worn version. So the questions continue and the Rosetta Stone is good but doesn't do it all. George

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Still , I would be thrilled to see a copy of the memorandum- maybe you could attach it to this thread! It fascinates me to see what turns up on the Forum! Thanks for all the work you all are doing on our hobby to save this story for posterity!

 

David

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David, I think Brian will use it or attach in upcoming thread he's working on, as he asked my permission to post it this AM and I gave it to him of course. I got my copy 35 years ago when we where working the Insignia of AEF book in the mid-80's.

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  • 2 weeks later...
littlewilly

After reading about the 3rd's service from Austin's post I remembered this uniform. Perhaps it's another patch variation for the unit. Has anyone ever seen one like this?

 

The 3rd Pioneer Infantry Regiment was attached to the First Army Artillery Park. As already reported, they supplied the "muscle" for the labor work required by the park for collection and storage of the various types of ammunition. The First Army Artillery Park wore the "officially" sanctioned A over the horizontal artillery shell. Ordnance units with the park wore this insignia with the Ordnance "bomb" above the shell. The 3rd PIR would have followed the instructions of Ordnance officers who supplied the technical information on proper handling of the ordnance being positioned/removed at the park. The 3rd would have had an Ordnance section, due to the possibility of their future use as a purely infantry regiment as part of the proposed 191st Infantry Brigade (along with the 4th PIR) to be organized in France as part of the 96th Division. The Ordnance section would have worn the same patch as the rest of the regiment. The patch with the 3 on a shell background is interesting, indeed. I would surmise that it is an unofficial design that may have been submitted for approval, but not accepted by GHQ AEF. That did not stop men from wearing it. Look at the example of the 18th Engineer Regiment. They did not even bother to submit their design for approval, they just sewed them on and wore them proudly. Mike J.

 

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world war I nerd

This drawing is of the1st Army, Pioneer Infantry insignia that was authorized on 14 December 1918 in the above mentioned 1st Army Memorandum No. 45. All of the information contained in both Memorandum No's 45 & 46 can be found at the following link:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/265334-wwi-first-army-insignia-memorandum-no-45-46/

 

A big thanks goes out to George aka gomorgan for getting a copy of the memorandum to me to post for him.

post-5143-0-79581700-1461154696.jpg

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Going back to my original post, where does this info leave us? We have photographic evidence of this patch as 3rd Pioneers. Is the patch reality as opposed to rule? Thanks again to all - interesting discussion.

 

mccooper

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world war I nerd

With phrases like "will conform" ... "wearing unauthorized insignia or adornment will cease forthwith" ... and ... "scrupulous care and supervision will be taken by Commanders to ensure uniformity" ... all used in the wording of the announcement of the new insignia designs adopted by the First Army, it would seem as if First Army HQ was pretty adamant that all shoulder insignia within that organization were to be uniform in appearance.

 

But right now we don't know if that was the case or not ... It just sounds that way when we read the paperwork. Plus, we don't know whether or not if the designs of the First Army insignia were changed again at a later date?

 

I just read the memoirs of a lieutenant in the 33rd Engineer Regiment. He mentioned that the men of his company were ordered by regimental HQ to change their shoulder insignia four times from Advance Sector, SOS to 1st Army with the red engineer castle between the legs, then to 2nd Army, and finally to just the red engineer castle!

 

This is an excellent example of why deciphering WW I insignia can, at times, be described as "difficult".

 

So to answer your question Mccooper, personally, I am left in a state of confusion.

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world war I nerd

Man, I really am in a state of confusion. The memoirs mentioned above were written by an officer in the 23rd Engineer Regiment, not the 33rd as I had inadvertently written.

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It would seem reasonable at this point in time to accept the A over shell patch as 3rd Pioneers, based on the hard copy and photographic evidence submitted by AustinO, Bill K and littlewilly while truly appreciating the data submitted from gomorgan. Or am I jumping to a conclusion too soon? Has anyone observed a known Pioneer uniform with the patch with a red & white V within the legs of the A? I will keep my ID as 3rd Pioneer for now, checking back to this posting on a regular basis. Also will let you know if I can find anything else. Nerd, thanks for great story about the 4-patch change - sounds like the Army for sure. Thanks again to all - love the hobby and its mysteries. All the best,

 

mccooper

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Hi,

I believe the following shoulder insignia to have been worn by the white pioneer infantry regiments.

1st Pioneer Infantry: Third Army

This regiment was attached to III Corps in the Argonne.

2nd Pioneer Infantry: II Corps

This regiment did military police and guard duty at ports and military installations across France. I have observed two or three jackets from the regiment with the II Corps patch. It seems like one was listed on Bay State Militaria not long ago. Perhaps the patch was selected because the regiment was originally organized for service with II Corps.

3rd Pioneer Infantry: First Army with horizontal artillery shell.

As already discussed in this thread, the 3rd Pioneer Infantry lugged artillery shells during the Argonne Offensive.

51st Pioneer Infantry: IV Corps, sometimes including a Third Army roundel.

This regiment served with IV Corps from the St. Mihiel Offensive to the Armistice.

52nd Pioneer Infantry: V Corps with a light blue infantry insert.

This regiment served with V Corps during the Argonne Offensive. I have a couple pictures showing members of the regiment wearing this patch.

53rd Pioneer Infantry: First Army with red and white V between the legs. Also I Corps.

This regiment served with I Corps during the Argonne Offensive. I seem to recall seeing an identified uniform on Ebay with the First Army patch identified in the chart. I also believe that I have seen at least one panoramic photo of members of this regiment wearing the I Corps patch. Perhaps different battalions or companies served in different locations and adopted different insignia.

54th Pioneer Infantry: Third Army

This regiment served as part of First Army during the Argonne Offensive.

56th Pioneer Infantry: Third Army

This regiment served as part of First Army during the Argonne Offensive.

59th Pioneer Infantry: Second Army

I believe that this regiment decorated their helmets with a gold swastika on a blue diamond. You can see an example of this insignia on the cover of their unit history.

These are just my observations. I welcome feedback and corrections.

-hist3891

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mccooper-

 

Glad I could help. I grew up near where most of these regiments were organized (Camp Wadsworth, SC), so they are of some interest to me.

 

rolfi-

 

Thanks for posting the patch attributed to the 4th Pioneer Infantry. I have also seen a very similar patch attributed to the 57th. The interesting thing is that both of these regiments were broken up for replacements when they reached France. Most of the enlisted men were probably in the training cadres of the 83rd Division when the Armistice was signed. To the best of my knowledge, these regiment remained little more than skeletons until they were finally demobilized.

 

Is there any possibility that these two regiment might have adopted patches before they sailed for France? Has anyone ever encountered one of these patches identified to a specific vet? Has anyone ever seen an example attributed to the 55th Pioneer Infantry, which sailed for France around the same time as the 4th and 57th and was also broken up for replacements.

 

-hist3891

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Here is an SSI on a uniform coat I have. The collar disks are a US/1 and an Ordnance Corps. Rank chevron is for an Ordnance PFC. First Army Artillery Park?

 

post-943-0-94786100-1461632503.jpg

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