A Tiger Zoo--Flying Tigers AVG, CBI, & 23rd Fighter Grouping + Other PTO ETO Heroes

[Wharfmaster]

This 5 3/4 inch leather patch was found with the bullion AVG patch I posted above. No idea if it is right or not. 

[josesharontraders]

This is definitely post AVG. This pattern was painted on the flight suits for various AVG. Scarcity of leather material AVG period. In many of their diaries, they regretted leaving their navy jackets at home, and remarked on the few that brought winter jackets with them, until they retreated to China in February 1942 after British Burma fields in Toungoo and Magwe were overrun, thence issued US navy and AAC jackets stockpiled in advance by the Nationalist Chinese government. Only known leather patch was the Peacock patch issued & numbered in March 1942 for AVG vehicle passes. 

 

If there was such as these painted on leather patch, then why there exists no period-leather patch for each of their beloved squadrons--pandas, Adam & Eves, Hells? Souvenir patches post AVG period were sold by the early AVG Memorial Hall association to raise organisational funds to many CATF & 14th Airforce airmen-fans.

 

Pleasure to give my inputs.

 

 

[Wharfmaster]

9 hours ago, josesharontraders said:

This is definitely post AVG. This pattern was painted on the flight suits for various AVG. Scarcity of leather material AVG period. In many of their diaries, they regretted leaving their navy jackets at home, and remarked on the few that brought winter jackets with them, until they retreated to China in February 1942 after British Burma fields in Toungoo and Magwe were overrun, thence issued US navy and AAC jackets stockpiled in advance by the Nationalist Chinese government. Only known leather patch was the Peacock patch issued & numbered in March 1942 for AVG vehicle passes. 

 

If there was such as these painted on leather patch, then why there exists no period-leather patch for each of their beloved squadrons--pandas, Adam & Eves, Hells? Souvenir patches post AVG period were sold by the early AVG Memorial Hall association to raise organisational funds to many CATF & 14th Airforce airmen-fans.

 

Pleasure to give my inputs.

 

 

 

Great info Jose, thanks very much. 

 

W

[VB21]

Hello Jose, what do you think about this patch?  There is a small moth nip to the right of the "G".  The patch is approximately 3 inches in diameter. Thank you in advance.  Steve

[VB21]

Oops...the AVG patch I posted earlier is closer to 3.25 inches in diameter rather than 3 inches.

[chief4af]

An outstanding collection of insignia. I would like to share some of my pieces that relate to this subject. The AVG patch displayed is displayed in Larry Pistole book, Flying Tigers in chapter IV. The wings are theater made and the metal hat badge might be post AVG as research has some reporting.

[josesharontraders]

¨An outstanding collection of insignia. I would like to share some of my pieces that relate to this subject. The AVG patch displayed is displayed in Larry Pistole book, Flying Tigers in chapter IV. The wings are theater made and the metal hat badge might be post AVG as research has some reporting.¨--chief4af

 

 

 

Dear chief4af,

 

Thanks a lot for sharing your outstanding AVG Flying Tigers collection. My site is honoured to host your curating that now you share with fellow collectors. Quick comment:

 

1) the AVG patch you own is part of the 1st Series patches ordered from Jinxing Street tailors in early May 1942 and distributed in the night of May 22 by RT Smith & AVG 2nd-in-command  Skip Adaire. Mostly 2nd and 3rd Squadron, crews & armorers received these patches in a going-away party on May 22 hosted in downtown Hostel 3 by the latter. You can see the more tender silk used which the later orders cured with tighter woven silk in the 2nd series of official period AVG patches.

 

2) The breast AVG insignia you have is so beautiful. They were made in British India, using gaberdine or khaki, the most abundant material at the time.

 

3) Your bullion cap badge as well as all the metal badge with or without the starburst are indeed period AVG-nationalist china military provenance.

 

Wow!! Vaya!! your collection is so wonderful. Again thanks for sharing.  

 

Happy weekend,

Jose

 

 

 

 

 

 

[josesharontraders]

My comment on your bloodchit is that it was part of the 2nd series AVG bloodchits, which have 2 characters on top of the serial number, and the specific designation in parenthesis that the airman to be aided by all Chinese who come across him was an American.

 

1st series bloodchit numbered to almost 600 (Gen. Chennault kept the first 200, later auctioned to raise funds for AVG association in the 50s) while 2nd series which type more than half of the AVG received numbered up through 2000.

 

An AVG period bloodchit manifests the chop in the middle--without exception.

 

My 2 shekels observation, Señor. And, thank you for sharing for your advanced collection.

[chief4af]

Jose,

        I was glad to share my collection with the group. I value the the info you provided, it adds great insight to the history. The help that you provide is a true testament to the passion you have for the hobby. A little story behind this grouping. The AVG shoulder patch was bought from Larry Pistole many years ago by a friend of mine, who has since passed. The AVG patch is in fact the same patch pictured in the Flying Tiger Book attributed to Mess Supervisor Bill Towery. The AVG breast badge and blood chit came from my friend as well as the bullion hat badge, not sure where the breast badge or blood chit was obtained from, but the hat badge I once owned and gave to my friend for his collection. My friend cherished these pieces, as every time I was in for a visit. He would bring them out to share with me. Even today when I bring these pieces out to admire, I feel his presence looking over my shoulder to make sure I am taking good care of his AVG pieces. I was lucky to be in first position when the collection was broken up and as you can image these pieces have a spirit, as funny as that sounds. Thank you for all your help.

 

[josesharontraders]

You're welcome, my friend.

 

I spoke to Mr. Larry Pistole overseas in the summer 2 months before he passed. He was raising money to leave for his son and soon-to-be widow and for the cancer treatment.  While feeling sorry for him, I also felt honoured to speak to him lengthily twice about his genuine recollection of how he gathered his artefacts over time. He also wanted to sell the taped interviews of the AVG, which now, converted to CD, his good son offers on eBay.

 

I know what you mean about your friend's presence.

 

Stay well, chief4af.

 

 

jose

 

 

[josesharontraders]

Here is Mr. Pistole's autograph book he offered but I let him bid it out anyway for others because I was loaded up with his other stuff, 2 summer months before he passed, if I recall in late 2016.

 

 

[josesharontraders]

 

 

Posted September 7

Hello Jose, what do you think about this patch?  There is a small moth nip to the right of the "G".  The patch is approximately 3 inches in diameter. Thank you in advance.  Steve

 

 

 

Dear Steve,

 

Buenas tardes from Spain. Sorry for delay getting back, but things like this have to be well-studied.

 

You definitely own a souvenir post AVG reproduction patch made in China at about the time of the CATF (Jul 1942-Dec 1943 actual). The tiger is almost equal to the one found at the San Diego Air & Space Museum and the one in my collection from the humble AVG  Ace Pilot Tex Hill. Since curator Al Valdes & museum head Terry Brennan  and I discussed the 2 patches below, the museum concluded they were made in China. Hence since your tiger is also that of the stocky Amur Tiger fondly-regarded in China unlike the hated Bengal tiger in British India, it follows your patch is also a valuable find. 

 

This series of post AVG July 1942 patches were initially given out to the few remaining 23 AVG staffers & the 5 pilots.  Later they were made by the 1943 AVG Memorial Hall association to raise funds from fellow admiring CATF/23rd Fighter group  airmen, numbering 25,0000. Look at the SDASM's and Tex Hill's post AVG souvenir 1940s repro patches below.

 

 

 

 

I also messaged your seller twice during the auction who didn't even reply or had no dinky idea what he was selling.

 

 

 

Look at a current repro copy of one on Ebay now:

 

Here is a 1942 post AVG brown patch with bullion chinese characters over wool given to holdover Chinese nationals working at the AVG HQ in Kunming and Chunking. The tiger is rendered nearly quite different from ours also. Lookee below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am pleasantly surprised and happy giving you my small opinion this way. For further reading, you can look at post #256 of this site. Your authentic period WW2 AVG reproduction patch is worth $1,500 to $2,000, my estimate.

 

Un Cordial Saludo,

Jose

[VB21]

Hello José,  Muchas Gracias! Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response.  I also communicated with this seller and was able to receive 2 responses, which I am attaching.  The value is interesting but these items are really irreplaceable.  Best regards, Steve

[josesharontraders]

Thank you for lighting up this part of history as it relates to the patch’s old provenance.

[chief4af]

You are very welcomed. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. You make our hobby what it is today. I commend you for a job very well done!

[VB21]

Hello José, I obtained this patch many years ago.  I think maybe 30 or more years ago.  I do not recall exactly where or when. It has several moth nips around the perimeter.  It appears to be silk on wool. It is approximately 7.5 inches in length.  Thank you for looking.

[VB21]

Hello José, again so soon!  Here is a pin which has no apparent history or provenance.  It reportedly came from an old New York estate.  It is approximately 1 15/16 inches long. A small piece of enamel is missing at the base of the light blue wings.  The pin is hallmarked "W&H Co."  It is lightly engraved on the back with the words:

To My Dearest Mary

          AVG

 

Thank you for looking.

[chief4af]

Here are a few more pictures of the collection. I am thinking they relate. As we started with the AVG, CATF and then move to the 14th AAF. Amazing how a small group of aviators set the stage for the 14th Air Force.

[busternfo]

VB-21,  I posted this silk-on-wool approx. 7.5 inch version of this patch earlier on this forum.  Was told it was a copy made for flight jackets used in the 1940s movie "Flying Tigers" starring John Wayne.  I'll try to locate the posting and get it to you.  Best,

 

Dennie

[chief4af]

Hi Dennie,

               Thanks for responding. Not sure of the patch you are referring to. I look forward to see more info so that I can get back to you.

 

Thanks

[josesharontraders]

 

 

 

 

Hi chief4af,

 

Buenos dias from Asia.

 

Am now in quarantine for 10 days in a hotel in Asia. What a way to do business. In Turkey coming in from Spain, for 3 nights, it was much better: no restrictions upon landing and I could chase down all my appointments.

 

Provenance & Pricing. For moderator purposes, Dennie or ¨busternfo¨ was communicating with fellow collector Steve or ¨VB-21¨ about the well-known opinions where that CATF (china air task force) patch originated. Even Bob Chat the boss of USMF, had made the correct opinion these were reproduced in 1942 for the John Wayne movie Flying Tigers. I myself years ago made a mistake and overpaid $2,200 for same exact patch. In all cases, Steve or ¨VB-21¨, has a CATF reproduction patch worth somewhere between $600 to $1000, for its history and its age.

 

A Brief History of the China Air Task Force. The CATF started off with the 23rd Fighter Group composed of 3 squadrons (74th, 75th, & 76th squadrons) plus a medium bomber unit + a rescue unit based in the Assam Airfields of British India. They endured being under-strength--with 25,000 men rotating into Kunming & Chunking averaging 10,000 at any one time facing a much larger Japanese Kwantung Army Airforce brought up from Malaya (to replenish what the AVG Flying Tigers destroyed)-- and supported by new tech planes from Japan--from July 1942 to December 1943, actual.  When private businessman Roosevelt friend, Wendell Wilkie visited Gen. Chennault in China, the former saw the stellar performance of the CATF, which led to his recommendation to President FDR to create the 14th Airforce led by Chennault. The official start date was March 1943, but due to deliberate jealousy for Chennault talking over senior AAC-AAF head Gen. Hap Arnold, Gen. Vinegar Joe Stillwell and his assistant General Clayton Bissell of the 10th Airforce--under which command the CATF was subordinate--new planes, men & materiel only reached its proper scale in Kunming by December 1943. Over 55,000 American airmen--and natural souvenir-hunters hehehe--rotated into the CBI to man the 14th Airforce under General Chennault.

 

I refer you to post #260, wherein you can kindly see aerial photos of the CATF base in Kunming and its expansion. 

 

Stay well chief4af, caballero,

 

José

 

 

 

 

[chief4af]

Jose,

          Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding. I thought I would share another patch with the group. I believe it to be 1st Bomb Grp, CATF. Let me know what you think. Sorry to here about your delay, I am sure you will make the best of it.

Thanks

[josesharontraders]

Wow chief4af,

 

I'll get back to you this weekend re: your hear-throbbing collection. Very nice. You are welcome to post CBI here. Estupendo.

 

Stay well,

José

[busternfo]

Hello VB-21, chief4af and Jose!  Thanks to all for clearing up my foul-up regarding my recent post.  Sorry for the confusion.  I'm glad to hear I seemed to have gotten the straight story regarding the large patch, Flying Tigers movie, etc.  I too have this patch; thanks Jose for your estimated value, knowing it's a reproduction, but done in 1942.  Would it be safe to assume the construction, material, embroidery are faithful WWII workmanship?  Really appreciate and enjoy this thread, thanks again,

 

Dennie

[busternfo]

Here's my patch.