Heavily Damaged late War WWII M1 helmet set

[ArchangelDM]

On the subject of Helmet damage from above I can safely  say this Japanese soldier did not make it. 
looks to be a direct mortar hit ! The inside leather shows where the shrapnel pieces being red hot pierced the leather liner in several places showing burn marks when it exploded through. The impact  would have been devastating.  I’m guessing this marine had a reason for bringing this home. 

 

This helmet was found in a box with the camo’d marine helmet at a swap meet/ house sale together. 
 

 

 

[dmar836]

Holy cow. Yeah, that's a little more believable.

[ArchangelDM]

46 minutes ago, dmar836 said:

Holy cow. Yeah, that's a little more believable.

I believe it was a 60mm mortar round due to the size of entry and the rounded initial entry hole which literally pushed this helmet apart until “boom” blowing shrapnel out of the occupants head and helmet 

[The Rooster]

Concearning the original helmet in this post...

Liners dont mold like that. They crack and splinter.

Looks to me like the shell was heated up with a liner in it and then placed on the floor and whacked with a metal bar.

In my mind, thats the only way the liner takes on the shapes and folds of the steel helmet.

Otherwise it would have just cracked and splintered. And would have been ejected out of the steel.

 

 

[P-59A]

3 hours ago, dmar836 said:

P-59A I thought you stated it was a small, square shaped impact. Misunderstood. No offense intended to anyone here as we're all just in the world of make believe.

This is becoming more common in the past couple of years with M-1s. What used to be discounted as likely playground or wheel chock-type damage is now forgotten(nobody has does that to WWII lids in a good generation or two). We've now replaced such logical assumptions (since we all did it) with artillery/bullet damage that is now considered just as common and likely as WWII tent stake damage was but where are those? Again, where are the souvenir bashed in helmets of the then-hated enemy?  Some of these imaginations are going for big $$ yet there is no more provenance or evidence now than 30 yrs ago. Just a lot more imagination and hope.

 

dmar836, Yup I said rectangular shaped object. When you look at it turned over its very clear. The metal on all four corners of the rectangular imprint show the metal conforming to the force of impact of a rectangular object in the form of ridge lines. The strike hits at slight angle as seen in the imprint pushing the impact below the lid opposite the folds on the corners. That much is clear. My other observation was the the patina indicates it was done some time ago and the force of impact was sudden and a single high velocity strike. Its clear the liner was in it when it happened. I do not agree with a farm jack, tank tread, engine block or any other low energy impact of being the cause of the damage. The paint loss around the damage lines up with high velocity impact that blew the paint off the metal. As to how the damage happened I have no clue. I was not there and have no direct knowledge. As to kids messing around, I don't think so due to the high velocity nature of the strike. Was this faked? Maybe, but to what ends? The damage was done decades ago. WW2 helmets were cheep then and there would have been no real demand for a damaged helmet 50 or more years ago ( that is about the time I started collecting). As for why the seller would not give a name...my first thought is that it was stolen and my second thought was someone needed a fix. As for lugging it around after the event...guys lugged things around and mailed things home all the time. I'm sure they lugged stuff around a for a few days until they could mail them. If someone had this on at the time of impact they were most likely injured and took this with them to the field hospital or ship and sent it home from there. Those are only thoughts. If I were to come across something like this at a good price I would buy it and take it to my local police or sheriffs department and have their ballistics guys take a hard look at it.

[CavalryCombatant]

2 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:

On the subject of Helmet damage from above I can safely  say this Japanese soldier did not make it. 
looks to be a direct mortar hit ! The inside leather shows where the shrapnel pieces being red hot pierced the leather liner in several places showing burn marks when it exploded through. The impact  would have been devastating.  I’m guessing this marine had a reason for bringing this home. 

 

This helmet was found in a box with the camo’d marine helmet at a swap meet/ house sale together. 
 

 

 

Is there a thread of this anywhere? I’d love to see more of the M1 and the fighting knife.

[ArchangelDM]

Just now, CavalryCombatant said:

Is there a thread of this anywhere? I’d love to see more of the M1 and the fighting knife.

 

not yet but I’ll make a thread on it tomorrow 

 

yours

 

Dean 

[P-59A]

As for the comment about it being sent back to the US as some sort of cleanup. No, trash was collected by metal salvagers and scrapped. In all the surplus stores I ventured into from the early 70's and the DRMO sales I went to I never saw trash for sale. It was hard enough to sell the nice stuff.  Back in the day this would have been trash. No one I knew collected damaged goods or Japanese items. Japanese helmets sold for 10 bucks and no one wanted them. Times changed. I wish I knew then...

[BryanJ]

1 hour ago, P-59A said:

As for the comment about it being sent back to the US as some sort of cleanup. No, trash was collected by metal salvagers and scrapped. In all the surplus stores I ventured into from the early 70's and the DRMO sales I went to I never saw trash for sale. It was hard enough to sell the nice stuff.  Back in the day this would have been trash. No one I knew collected damaged goods or Japanese items. Japanese helmets sold for 10 bucks and no one wanted them. Times changed. I wish I knew then...

Had a close uncle I spent summers with in Key West.  He was a former Marine wounded on Okinawa and later a civilian who worked on the Navy base in Key West in the 1950’s and 60’s.  He brought home all sorts of WWII helmets, belts, canteen, uniforms, etc., from his work on the Navy base, stuff that returned from the Pacific and had accumulated on WWII ships.  Lots of equipment was buried on the islands, lots thrown overboard, and lots of used and damaged equipment also returned and was later scraped and surplused.  The helmet we’re discussing, who knows.

[Burning Hazard]

4 hours ago, The Rooster said:

Concearning the original helmet in this post...

Liners dont mold like that. They crack and splinter.

Looks to me like the shell was heated up with a liner in it and then placed on the floor and whacked with a metal bar.

In my mind, thats the only way the liner takes on the shapes and folds of the steel helmet.

Otherwise it would have just cracked and splintered. And would have been ejected out of the steel.

 

 

 

Good point Rooster. I recall the vet bring back 327th on Mark Bando's page, note the liner is cracked from the impact dent.

 

"This helmet was submitted by Neal, a frequent visitor to this site. It was obtained from the son of Cpl. Willard Williamson, an E/327th trooper, who had it in a German box. Great find! There is battle damage to the crown: a dent 4 inches wide and 2 inches deep in the pot, and the crown of the liner broken and caved-in. This resulted from being struck by falling debris at Bastogne while running down the street under an artillery barrage. Williamson was slightly wounded, but was denied a Purple Heart, because this type of injury was commonplace at Bastogne. The rear of the helmet bears a small rank insignia, painted on the rear of the liner.c/o NPJ collection"

 

Pat

[P-59A]

Burning Hazard, Your point is interesting. I had to go back and look at that liner. I copied the image and zoomed in.  Please point out the indications of heat being applied. I don't see it and I don't see indications of a repaint after the fact . One would expect the paint to be disturbed from the kind of heat needed to make the liner soft. It's clear no heat was applied to the inside of the liner so if heat was used it had to be to the outside. Secondly if one was going to make a good fake why would one heat the liner? Wouldn't one want to replicate the type damage seen in your photo? Lastly when these helmet liners were new they had some flex and give to them. Over time the the liner hardens and they become more easily damaged by forces that would of had minimal effect when they were new.

[sgtdorango]

Man you guys are overthinking this one, most likely the helmet was just sitting on the ground and something very very heavy was dropped on it....mike

[The Rooster]

Let me clear up something,.... I am not implying anything about fakery.......

Im just trying to look at it logically. And respectfully, wether new or old I believe liners tend to crack and splinter rather than melt to conform to shapes.

As evidenced by the picture above of the helmet hit by debris in Bastogne, which the liner was most likely rather new at the time the damage was done.

It was very cold in Bastogne at the time. ...... This helmet being from the Pacific ?

Could have been a very hot day ? Maybe a shell did impact the top and the heat melted the liner ?

But I think its safe to say that anyone wearing it at the time this happened probably died as a result ?

But who knows ?

I dont know and cannot prove anything and mean no offense to anyone.

It just looks like the liner had to be hot to mold to the shape inside the steel.

Just my two cents... I dont know.

[P-59A]

I do not intend the following to offend anyone so please do not take offence to the following. I would rather over think than underthink everything. I have read a lot of opinions. In fact I only have my opinions based on my observations.  The difference is I can see a logical chain of events that lead to this helmet looking the way it does. I can not look into the past and know what happened to cause the damage. The one sentence explanations fail to explain the condition of the helmet in its totality  If ones opinion is this is a fake then in more than a one sentence declaration explain how you came to that conclusion. Could this be a fake? Sure it can, but I haven't read any compelling thought as to why it is a fake. Back in the day in my learning curve I bought a couple helmets that turned out to be faked. I sent them to an expert for a hands on examination. It was explained to me in detail how the fakers made them and I never made those mistakes again. If this is a fake someone is putting thought into it and that should scare everyone. Real helmets like this do exist and they are rare. If you would walk past this at a yard sale you could be making a big mistake. If you collect M1 helmets then this helmet is a very inexpensive learning curve. I see compelling reasons as to why this could be real and others see a reason why it isn't. The debate is academic for some and food for thought for others. This is not my helmet and I have no skin in this. It's the discussion that matters. If this is indeed fake support your claims. If I am missing something I want to know what I missed.

[P-59A]

A long time ago I bought a nice short strap early M1 with a double sided painted liner with some patch's, a transportation disk and ribbons from a picker who said it came from an estate sale in Long Beach. It really looked good, almost too good. It had damage to the dome of the pot I could not explain. I rolled the dice and bought everything. The damage to the dome was a head scratcher and I couldn't figure it out. I posted it here and others replied with photo's of their helmets with the same damage. It was caused by heating something in it over an open fire, maybe water for shaving. The painted liner was the next question. The liner had been put into the pot while the paint was not fully dry and some of that paint was inside the helmet. The thought was it was painted very late in the war or post war. At the time that was a possibility, but I couldn't prove it. As luck would have it the soldier inked his name on the chin strap and I was able to track him to Long Beach. He moved and I was able to find him in Northern Calif. He moved to be near his family and sold everything in a living estate sale before he moved. It was his helmet, he was a truck driver and that is why the helmet looked so good and he painted it after the war ended. Always look at the totality of everything then decide if its worth rolling the dice. Everything is a roll of the dice...always.  As it stands right now I can see no reason why this would not be a roll of the dice, but that's just me.

[Burning Hazard]

P-59A, I never said in any of my previous posts that the helmet is fake or agreed that heat was applied. Just said the Rooster brought up a good point and Mark Brando’s helmet popped into my mind regarding damage.

 

It is also possible that this liner was very wet when struck as the fibreglass/plastic was saturated with water and more bendy when newer. If you look inside at the webbing and sweatband there are signs of water damage. The leather has shrunk and pulled the webbing, eventually chipping away. The washers are corroded.  I have a liner that appears to survived a flood and it has the same signs inside.

 

Pat

[dmar836]

The corroded washers prove it was in the Pacific! The swivel bail makes it late-war and few troops were near the Atlantic by then. Rhine river water isn't salty. That's all just fact so....

Now what caused that dent? It was in the Pacific and very hot. We've seen those appalling films of the cliffs in Okinawa? I really see no other way this could have happened.

 

[The Rooster]

I have a liner with corroded washers.

It sat in a damp basement for decades. Was no where near the Pacific.

[dmar836]

Nope. It was in the Pacific too.

I have a mint M-3 with instruction sheet still inside. I though I had lightly dinged and scraped it against the wall here and there while on display over the past 25yrs when I suddenly realized the airman might have(very likely, in fact) fallen against the inside of the fuse as the pilot was avoiding a flak barrage. I wonder if I should sand off the flocking to see if there is a 506 spade under there?

Happy New Year, guys!

[ArchangelDM]

4 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Nope. It was in the Pacific too.

I have a mint M-3 with instruction sheet still inside. I though I had lightly dinged and scraped it against the wall here and there while on display over the past 25yrs when I suddenly realized the airman might have(very likely, in fact) fallen against the inside of the fuse as the pilot was avoiding a flak barrage. I wonder if I should sand off the flocking to see if there is a 506 spade under there?

Happy New Year, guys!

 

That’s tickled me happy new year Dmar836

[P-59A]

Hmmm, Gee he must have dropped an  engine on it. The caption reads it was a bullet hit. Maybe a spent round tumbling in the air...It has things in common with the helmet posted.

[P-59A]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:54 PM, Burning Hazard said:

P-59A, I never said in any of my previous posts that the helmet is fake or agreed that heat was applied. Just said the Rooster brought up a good point and Mark Brando’s helmet popped into my mind regarding damage.

 

It is also possible that this liner was very wet when struck as the fibreglass/plastic was saturated with water and more bendy when newer. If you look inside at the webbing and sweatband there are signs of water damage. The leather has shrunk and pulled the webbing, eventually chipping away. The washers are corroded.  I have a liner that appears to survived a flood and it has the same signs inside.

 

Pat

Pat, I wasn't bagging on you, at least you posted a photo to make your point. Preponderance of the evidence takes the day. I was bagging on those who just flip out a comment and don't follow through with anything worth considering. The heated idea was a real possibility. I had to consider it because it didn't cross my mind. I had to go back and look hard the helmet it to knock the heated idea down. Had that panned out I would have tapped out. What bugs me is that guy posted the helmet looking for considered opinion and got a mixed bag from the peanut gallery. What bugs me even more is the thought he let it go without having something more to think about. With things like that one has to be able to support why it is real and be able to counter why it is not real. I have posted some very cool things only to have the uninformed come out swinging bats looking to knock it down like the P-51D seat I posted. Before posting it I paid to have the Sheriffs Dept. ballistic guys look it over and render an expert opinion based on their training and experience which is given weight in court.  I try to be reasonable, logical and detached when I look at things like this. My opinions are only of what I see, so when others see something else I want to know what they base the observation on...thats all.

[P-59A]

The guy second from bottom has that same indentation on his helmet.