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Does number on back mean the sub or manufacturing?


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Came across this pin and they are saying that the "SS244" is for the submarine "Cod". Is this a submarine number? Or a manufacturer's number? If this is the Cod, then it appeals, as the Cod is docked right near us! Thanks for any thoughts! I'm branching out into submarines for the moment, and am a total newbie!

 

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SS 224 would mean Cod, but that is not a standard marking. Usually, these are just marked with the maker.

 

One thing about these that alarms me is that they are solid. I could be wrong, and would love to be corrected, but I have been told (and have seen the difference) that patrol pins, at least, are generally fakes if solid, and a hollow stamping if real. I don't know exactly with the dolphins, but my gut doesn't like them.

Looking for the following:

452nd and 447th Bomb Group items

Anything 12th Armored- especially uniforms

155th Assault Helicopter Company, Camp Coryell, or Ban Me Thuot Vietnam items[/center]


WWII US Navy Uniforms from the Battle Off Samar: USS Johnston DD-557, USS Hoel DD-553, USS Samuel B. Roberts DE-413, USS Heermann DD-532, USS Dennis DE-405, USS John C. Butler DE-339, USS Raymond DE-341, USS Fanshaw Bay St. Lo, White Plains, Kalinin Bay, Kitkun Bay and Gambier Bay...


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A quick perusal of "U.S. Silent Service Dolphins & Combat Insignia 1924-1945" by David A. Jones shows many solid back insignia, including patrol pins! It's a great book, well illustrated and researched.

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Good to know, I might have been advised about a particular type, now that I think of it. What do you think about this badge?

 

To me, it looks cast, from the back, which is often kind of a red flag with USAAF wings...

Looking for the following:

452nd and 447th Bomb Group items

Anything 12th Armored- especially uniforms

155th Assault Helicopter Company, Camp Coryell, or Ban Me Thuot Vietnam items[/center]


WWII US Navy Uniforms from the Battle Off Samar: USS Johnston DD-557, USS Hoel DD-553, USS Samuel B. Roberts DE-413, USS Heermann DD-532, USS Dennis DE-405, USS John C. Butler DE-339, USS Raymond DE-341, USS Fanshaw Bay St. Lo, White Plains, Kalinin Bay, Kitkun Bay and Gambier Bay...


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I too would be leery of it as it does appear to be cast. I personally have not seen any with this type of stamping to the back. I'm thinking this a repro but I have been wrong in the past. Always learning.

Regards, Mitch

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SS 224 would mean Cod, but that is not a standard marking. Usually, these are just marked with the maker.

 

One thing about these that alarms me is that they are solid. I could be wrong, and would love to be corrected, but I have been told (and have seen the difference) that patrol pins, at least, are generally fakes if solid, and a hollow stamping if real. I don't know exactly with the dolphins, but my gut doesn't like them.

 

You are correct and I would also agree that these are cast. Appears to be of Meyer design but should not be solid at this stage IMO.

 

Tim

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The gold version. The description says it all.

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A friendly reminder that my images and material posted here are not to be considered "fair use" or "public domain". If you want to legally use my material outside this forum, for any purpose, my express written permission is requested and required beforehand.

 

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Thanks to everyone! Very interesting about it being cast because it is solid. Appreciate all the help!

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If you ever want a custom hand-embroidered (no machine) patch, I'm open to commissions! Pay or trade!
***********************
For an idea of my military collecting interests and wish list, see my profile page!
Looking for Old-Style US Coast Guard Commendation Medal (w/ or w/o ribbon)!

Oh, tarry and be strong; Tell God in prayer. What is thy hidden grief; Thy secret care.

Yet, if no answer come; Pray on and wait: God's time is always best; Never too late.

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I thought the same seeing the back.Casting an item in a mold often leaves small pits and imperfections to the back and there is less detail to the front of badges and wings compared to die stamping.To me I see these imperfections on the back of the badge.

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Also, castings are cheaper to make in the kind of small runs that a reproducer would request. A die and stamping press would require a very large initial cost, I'd think, and would only be practical for current, mass production.

 

Another thing about casting reproductions us that I think they are often investment cast, which almost always requires some thickness to let the casting fill out, so you'd never see a hollow cast piece. With this one, some of my gut reaction was to the blobby look that the back has, which to me is indicative of someone cleaning up their wax positive by hand.

 

Interestingly enough, it seems like the numbers for the Cod are in the mold, because it looked like the two examples had the same kind of spacing. Any sub marked set of dolphins would have been done by hand and wouldn't appear the same.

Looking for the following:

452nd and 447th Bomb Group items

Anything 12th Armored- especially uniforms

155th Assault Helicopter Company, Camp Coryell, or Ban Me Thuot Vietnam items[/center]


WWII US Navy Uniforms from the Battle Off Samar: USS Johnston DD-557, USS Hoel DD-553, USS Samuel B. Roberts DE-413, USS Heermann DD-532, USS Dennis DE-405, USS John C. Butler DE-339, USS Raymond DE-341, USS Fanshaw Bay St. Lo, White Plains, Kalinin Bay, Kitkun Bay and Gambier Bay...


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I love how the repro is called "museum quality." I assume they are referencing some of the small local historical society museums I've visited, where an artifact from 1980 will be labeled, "WWII," that sort of thing.


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I should clarify something here regarding the patrol pins. When I posted in post #6, I was referring to the H-H and Vanguard "deep wave" pattern badges, which are hollowed out stampings. The Amico, Blackinton, and N.S. Meyer are in fact solid backed, though there are details that separate real from reproduction. Best to review the following threads:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/93686-wwii-deep-wave-submarine-combat-patrol-insignia/

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/97499-wwii-pre-wwii-submarine-dolphins/

The second thread mostly regards the Dolphins or Submarine Qualification Badges for officers, but it has some examples as well. If you're going to start collecting sub insignia, I highly recommend reading through these two threads.

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I should add one more link as it has some interesting information in it for those collecting patrol pins, especially regarding the Sheridan fakes. It also shows the various examples from different manufacturers. Hope it helps.

 

https://juleswings.wordpress.com/tag/submariner/

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A friendly reminder that my images and material posted here are not to be considered "fair use" or "public domain". If you want to legally use my material outside this forum, for any purpose, my express written permission is requested and required beforehand.

 

Thank you.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I got looking through past Ebay sales and seen this set sold and for a fair amount. :wacko: I was shocked to see so many bidding on a bad set.

For future reference: http://www.pilotstoresusa.com/store/c/4248-US-Navy.html

Check out the "hot sellers" listed items (excerpt attached). I guess someone is making out, hopefully not at our USMF member's expense.


I would also point out that many sets marked with valid hallmarks are also being copied and it goes to show you need to be aware of the fakes as well as what to look for on period originals.

Tim

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A friendly reminder that my images and material posted here are not to be considered "fair use" or "public domain". If you want to legally use my material outside this forum, for any purpose, my express written permission is requested and required beforehand.

 

Thank you.

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