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Question on M1916 Holster makers list?

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Hello guys,

 

From what i see on The forum there is a list of 16 makers for The famous colt 1911a1 Holster .

 

Can you help me to classify the rarest to most common manufacturers .

 

We can also speak about the usmc holster and (plastic vinyl prototype)

 

Thank you for helping me realize this list .(only ww2)

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Hello G:

 

Ranking of makers of the M1916 holsters of WW2 in terms of relative scarcity is a difficult proposition to accomplish with any hope of accuracy. It involves mostly guesswork and drawing upon one's own experiences in observing holsters over the years.

 

Probably the most reliable approach would be to simply rank the makers in terms of each of their total M1916 production as revealed by the Digest of Significant Ordnance Purchases. However, even that method would leave out GP & S, the Australian maker, which may not have had an Ordnance Department contract valued in excess of $50,000, the cutoff for inclusion in the Digest. I don't have the time now to embark on such a study, but maybe someday.

 

Instead, I will offer below my opinion on relative scarcity based purely on my own experiences over the years. Other's mileage may vary, as the expression goes.

 

I will start by providing the listing of 17, not 16, makers of USGI M1916 holsters in WW2 drawn from my LIST OF MAKERS OF USGI MODEL 1916 HOLSTERS which I created with the help of other collectors and have posted here over the years. The LIST includes makers from 1916 up through the post-Viet Nam era when the M1911A1 pistol was ultimately replaced by the M9 pistol. Here are the WW2 makers from that LIST:

 

A.L.P. CO. (Atchison Leather Products Co., Atchison, Kansas)

BRAUER (Brauer Brothers Mfg. Co., St. Louis, Missouri)
BOYT (Boyt Harness Company, Des Moines, Iowa)
CRAIGHEAD (John R. Craighead Co., Inc., Denver, Colorado)
CRUMP (Benjamin T. Crump & Co., Richmond, Virginia)
ENGER-KRESS (Enger-Kress Company, West Bend, Wisconsin)
FINK (Fink Leather Shops, Kansas City, Missouri)
G.P.& S. (Australian manufacturer for US forces, complete name and location unknown)
GRATON & KNIGHT CO. (Graton & Knight Manufacturing Co., Worcester, Mass.)
HARPHAM BROS. (Harpham Brothers Co., Lincoln, Nebraska)
MILWAUKEE SADDLERY CO. (Milwaukee Saddlery Co., Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
JOSEPH H. MOSSER (Joseph H. Mosser Leather Co., Williamsport, PA)
S-B CO. (Straus-Bodenheimer Saddlery Co., Houston , Texas)
SEARS (Sears Saddlery Co., Davenport, Iowa)
TEXTAN (Texas Tanning & Manufacturing Co., Yoakum, Texas)
WALSH (Walsh Harness Co., Milwaukee, Wisconsin)
WARREN LEATHER GOODS CO. (Warren Leather Goods Co., Worcester, Mass.)

Rather than giving a ranking from 1 through 17 I have simply ranked them in three Groups as follows:

 

Group 1 Most Scarce

GP & S

Fink

S-B Co.

 

Group 2 Somewhat Scarce

A.L.P. Co.

Textan

Walsh

Joseph H. Mosser

Crump

Brauer

Harpham Bros.

Craighead

 

Group 3 Least Scarce And Easiest to Find

Boyt

Sears

Enger Kress

Milwaukee Saddlery

Graton & Knight

Warren Leather Goods

 

Again, your inquiry asked for relative ranking of scarcity by maker. Note that I placed Boyt in the third Group as being among the least scarce. It produced staggering amounts of M1916 holsters. However, it is worth noting that one particular subset of the Boyt holsters, the BoyT -41- marked holsters, is every bit as scarce as the GP & S holsters, in my experience.

 

Anyway, this would be my answer to your inquiry. I hope that you find it to be helpful.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello G:

 

Ranking of makers of the M1916 holsters of WW2 in terms of relative scarcity is a difficult proposition to accomplish with any hope of accuracy. It involves mostly guesswork and drawing upon one's own experiences in observing holsters over the years.

 

Probably the most reliable approach would be to simply rank the makers in terms of each of their total M1916 production as revealed by the Digest of Significant Ordnance Purchases. However, even that method would leave out GP & S, the Australian maker, which may not have had an Ordnance Department contract valued in excess of $50,000, the cutoff for inclusion in the Digest. I don't have the time now to embark on such a study, but maybe someday.

 

Instead, I will offer below my opinion on relative scarcity based purely on my own experiences over the years. Other's mileage may vary, as the expression goes.

 

I will start by providing the listing of 17, not 16, makers of USGI M1916 holsters in WW2 drawn from my LIST OF MAKERS OF USGI MODEL 1916 HOLSTERS which I created with the help of other collectors and have posted here over the years. The LIST includes makers from 1916 up through the post-Viet Nam era when the M1911A1 pistol was ultimately replaced by the M9 pistol. Here are the WW2 makers from that LIST:

 

A.L.P. CO. (Atchison Leather Products Co., Atchison, Kansas)

BRAUER (Brauer Brothers Mfg. Co., St. Louis, Missouri)

BOYT (Boyt Harness Company, Des Moines, Iowa)

CRAIGHEAD (John R. Craighead Co., Inc., Denver, Colorado)

CRUMP (Benjamin T. Crump & Co., Richmond, Virginia)

ENGER-KRESS (Enger-Kress Company, West Bend, Wisconsin)

FINK (Fink Leather Shops, Kansas City, Missouri)

G.P.& S. (Australian manufacturer for US forces, complete name and location unknown)

GRATON & KNIGHT CO. (Graton & Knight Manufacturing Co., Worcester, Mass.)

HARPHAM BROS. (Harpham Brothers Co., Lincoln, Nebraska)

MILWAUKEE SADDLERY CO. (Milwaukee Saddlery Co., Milwaukee, Wisconsin)

JOSEPH H. MOSSER (Joseph H. Mosser Leather Co., Williamsport, PA)

S-B CO. (Straus-Bodenheimer Saddlery Co., Houston , Texas)

SEARS (Sears Saddlery Co., Davenport, Iowa)

TEXTAN (Texas Tanning & Manufacturing Co., Yoakum, Texas)

WALSH (Walsh Harness Co., Milwaukee, Wisconsin)

WARREN LEATHER GOODS CO. (Warren Leather Goods Co., Worcester, Mass.)

 

Rather than giving a ranking from 1 through 17 I have simply ranked them in three Groups as follows:

 

Group 1 Most Scarce

GP & S

Fink

S-B Co.

 

Group 2 Somewhat Scarce

A.L.P. Co.

Textan

Walsh

Joseph H. Mosser

Crump

Brauer

Harpham Bros.

Craighead

 

Group 3 Least Scarce And Easiest to Find

Boyt

Sears

Enger Kress

Milwaukee Saddlery

Graton & Knight

Warren Leather Goods

 

Again, your inquiry asked for relative ranking of scarcity by maker. Note that I placed Boyt in the third Group as being among the least scarce. It produced staggering amounts of M1916 holsters. However, it is worth noting that one particular subset of the Boyt holsters, the BoyT -41- marked holsters, is every bit as scarce as the GP & S holsters, in my experience.

 

Anyway, this would be my answer to your inquiry. I hope that you find it to be helpful.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you it is exactly , this kind of reply i 'was waiting ;-)

Many thanks

I told 16 i Forgot The sbco maker

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DISREGARD


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Seeking USMC insignia, ega's Aviation, Airborne. U.S. Army Airborne patches & wings. U.S. Navy Specialty rates patches

 

In Memory of a loyal friend & WWII Vet Major Earl C. Willey and his USMC Brother Lloyd Vernon Willey who survived three years and 6 months as a Japanese POW in Burma & Thailand prison camps.

 

 

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Hi,

 

Most of what I read about Boyt holsters says that they are dated. I have a Boyt not dated and with inspector marks M.S. and a 4 stamped. Dark brown finish. I have seen a few on the internet but without explanation or a general description (WWII) Any ideas? Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

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CWnovice I think your Boyt holster is a WWI made holster.

Ronnie


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CWnovice I think your Boyt holster is a WWI made holster.

Ronnie

Agreed.

 

WW2 Boyt are dated.

 

WW1 generally are not and have inspectors initials.


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If the belt hook is brass and not steel, I'd say that it is a WW1 holster....this is usually a good tell to follow.


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Thanks guys I think I got the answer it's a World War I holster definitely has brass holders. Pretty cool picked it up at a flea market for 20 bucks and it's in very good shape.

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I just happened upon this thread as i am always looking into growing my knowledge in mil-surp holsters. Theres so much info to consume, u can major in just holsters...so to say, lol! With that preamble out of the way to avoid being called a troll or some other derogatory term for wanting info lol, ill get to my question in hand about my Boyt -44-. You stated a good way to tell a WWI from WWII is the brass hardware...its not the rule but a good way to identify era. The curious thing is i have a late war boyt here thats all brass hardware! Weird thing for a Boyt 44 id say! I also have another Boyt -44- with black steel hardware...well the hanger at least. Any thoughts on this all brass oddity so late in the war when brass was at a premium? No parts have been replaced as this came from the Cet it was issued to. So just want to get that out there too. I tried to upload photos but saying file is too big which it isnt!

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Lately I've embarked on researching holsters for a project of mine so I thought I would give Mr. Flick some assistance.
The data I have compiled for each maker is listed quantities and some areas approximated by unit cost. Next to each maker is the total production figures for the M1916 holster from 1941 to 1945.
Atchison-40,000 (actual specified quantity for contract) June 1944 contract award
Brauer- 20,000 (actual specified quantity for contract) June 1944 contract award
Boyt- April 1942 409,000 (approximated) October 1943 83,063 (actual specified quantity for contract) June 1944 350,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Craighead- March 1944 68,056 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Crump- No procurement information found, possibly a sub-contractor? I do know Boyt and Enger-Kress sub-contracted with each other.
Enger-Kress- April 1942 166,000 (approximated) June 1944 175,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Fink- March 1944 21,108 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Graton-Knight- September 1943 83,062 (actual specified quantity for contract) June 1944 105,375 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Harpham- March 1944 35,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Milwaukee- April 1942 50,000 (approximated) June 1944 100,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Mosser- No procurement information found, possibly a sub-contractor?
Straus-Bodenheimer- March 1944 20,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Sears- June 1944 100,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Texas- September 1941 30,000 (approximated) March 1944 68,054 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Walsh- June 1944 25,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)
Warren- June 1944 250,000 (actual specified quantity for contract)

This is the list of common to scarcity according to production figures, interesting to see how it adds up to examples observed today. It actually lines up quite good with Charlie's list
Boyt- 433,881
Enger-Kress- 341,000
Warren- 250,000
Graton-Knight- 188,437
Milwaukee- 150,000
Sears- 100,000
Texas- 98,054
Craighead- 68,056
Atchison- 40,000
Harpham- 35,000
Walsh- 25,000
Fink- 21,108
Brauer- 20,000
Straus-Bodenheimer- 20,000
Crump- Unknown
Mosser-Unknown

The unit cost for each holster varied between contract and contractor ranging from $1.55 to $1.68 each.

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That's cool. I had a Walsh, unissued in the bag, as well as a Groton & Knight in the bag.

 

When .45s were all I collected for a while, I had between 45-50 holsters in minty shape...loved them and still do, although all that's left is a Textan. Very fun part of the hobby for me once upon a time.


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Good stuff, Dustin. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on the numbers.

 

Regards,

Charlie


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So this morning while having my daily quota of coffee, I was looking over the condensed information and a few things jumped out at me.

It is most certain that there were sufficient quantities of the M1916 holster in stock from WWI procurements to satisfy service requirements leading up to WWII. I suppose it is possible that limited purchases were made here and there in the inter-war years but would be relatively localized.

Basically how it all works is that inventories are recorded annually or fiscally, and procurements of most all material are made for a one-year projection of consumption. If existing inventory meets the projected quota the release for funds to procure more would be withheld. This keeps recycling on an annual basis. Purchases are typically pretty well regulated on an administrative level based off existing tables of allowances. In these allowances or better known as Tables of Organization & Equipment, it will state the allotment allowed per unit. What most likely occurred is that there was an expansion of existing T/O&E's and possibly new ones distributed that changed the quantities required for the M1916 holster. This would in part explain the purchases in 1941, again this would be calculated per annual usage plus a percentage for spares. Then with the entry into the war, again T/O&E's expanded again increasing that requirement plus a percentage for spares based of the accumulative established requirement, hence the significant amounts in the spring of 1942. These procurements would meet the estimated consumption for one year.

Then we see a significant purchase in the late summer of 1943, a year after the 1942 awards, respectively. These two purchases awarded in September and October 1943 rang a bell with me, I've seen this before. What I saw was an odd amount, Boyt was to make 83,063 and Graton-Knight 83,062 for a total of 166,125 holsters. The Army Ord. Dept. had determined there needed to be a purchase for that amount to meet those estimated consumption rates for the next year. When you see contracts like this it means one thing, the contract was split between the contractors. Both contracts would had been negotiated at the same time, the reason for the two differing dates of award is simply when the contract was officially approved. We see the same things happening with Texas and Craighead.

Next, out of all the contracts the majority were awarded in 1944. The contracts from 1943 were a little past a year from those in 1942 but not by much. The next series were see issued in the spring of 1944, respectively, two years over the 1942 contracts. So now you can see the consistency. We don't see awards for 1945 for the simple reason that their was A-already significant quantifies in stock and B-the war was winding down greatly reducing the projected one year consumption.

Back to the majority of purchases in 1944, this also rang a bell with me and had seen this style of purchasing before in the same time frame. Note how there are a bundle of small quantities to these off the beaten path companies, this was done intentionally. The United States Treasury Department had established the Smaller War Plants Corporation as a stimulus plan of the era. This was instituted to assure the "Big Dogs" would not consume all the government spending, this program would assure that small companies see some the monies, spreading the wealth if you will. Companies that received assistance by this program typically only received contracts for limited amounts with in their capacity and typically it would only be a one shot deal or One Hit Wonder. This occurred with thousands of companies, and for example we see this with carbine clip pouches with all those unusual manufacturers, M1916 holsters apparently were of no exception. The ironic thing here is that these Smaller War Plant companies are the "Bigger Dog" because they made so little they are desirable pieces today were as the "Big Dogs" from the war are all so common.

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Sorry 13....the explanation for the brass on the later Boyt is pretty simple. Brass was not easy to get early in the war. So the switch to steel. Later the government let up on Brass and other hard to get items as well. So they went back to using brass.

Ronnie


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So, I'm trying to post my research from the Alphabetic Listing of Major War Supply Contracts 1940-1945 on the makers/contracts for holsters in WWll - I can't post it as a table so if anyone knows how to do that please contact me and I'll e-mail it to you to post for me. Also Dustin, can you please give me a source for your research on the number of holsters manufactured that you posted above so I can add it to my research. Thanks so much!

My email is rickveal@prtcnet.com

Rick

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Alphabetic Listing of Major War Supply Contracts 1940-1945 on the makers/contracts for holsters in WWll

 

c1.jpg

c2.jpg


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Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, USS Swordfish (SS-193), Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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Thanks Matt, I really appreciate the help!

 

You're welcome Rick. No problem.


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Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, USS Swordfish (SS-193), Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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If anybody would like to dig a little deeper into the Alphabetic Listing of Major War Supply Contracts here is the link ...

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-FzW-YWhyThME9hVHZqRlF6UHc

It's in either .zip or .pdf files and sadly, it's not searchable, so it will take some time to scroll through the pages. The original print version, volume 1, volume 2 and volume 3/4, published in 1946, is available at several college and university libraries and readily available through inter library loan.

My next project is to look up the contracts for the 1911A1's - Colt, Ithica, and Remington Rand.

Again, Happy Collecting!

Rick

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Aznation, you should probably go back and double check a few of those listings. First suggestion would be to adjust your contract number columns. You did not list the contract numbers but rather the procuring office prefix. It would be of better service if you listed the entire contract or amend to ORD then the following numbers. Note in your Enger Kress listing they almost all have the same prefix, this means the bulk of those purchases were executed through a specific regional office. Your Enger Kress contract for the June 1944 contract (3861) is not for the M3 but rather the M1916. Also, you obviously guessed on some of those contracts, for example in the Graton column for the 8/42 contract it simple lists "Holsters". There were many types of leather "holsters" manufactured so use caution.

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Hi Dustin,

 

FYI...I wasn't the one that made the listings. I just posted them for Vampire Writer (Rick). Thanks...


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Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, USS Swordfish (SS-193), Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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