bobgee Posted January 11, 2016 Share #1 Posted January 11, 2016 FYI - The following link is to the Marine Corps Times article on the subject and is provided for info only. As the subject may be controversial for some, please keep any comments civil. Semper Fi......Bob http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/01/07/marine-corps-ordered-make-boot-camp-coed-remove-man-from-titles.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick_usmc Posted January 11, 2016 Share #2 Posted January 11, 2016 While i'm not opposed to women serving in combat, I do think that we're going to see standards being lowered, which worries me. Men and women are simply built differently, which is a fact I think some people don't quite seem to understand, and that they are willing to ignore in the name of political-correctness. I think there are good points on both sides, but keeping men and women separate at training has worked thus far, why fix it if it isn't broken? It would be interesting to hear from some people who are Marines, to see how they feel about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCR79 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #3 Posted January 11, 2016 If there were females in my Platoon I would have had difficulty "keeping focused" Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #4 Posted January 11, 2016 How can you say that keeping them separate has worked so far when combat jobs have not been open for women? The training has not been the same because women have not been training for these combat roles. How can you say that the standards will be lowered when this has not been established and is only in the analysis phase? Yes men and women are built differently but it has been proven that women bring a different set of needed skills to the plate. The mission is the focus not the members of a platoon. If a Marine does not focus on the mission, then there is a bigger problem. If co-ed training started in the beginning then the women would be seen as fellow members of the platoon and not a distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted January 11, 2016 Share #5 Posted January 11, 2016 Gen John Kelly speaks the truth re this ill-conceived idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Ragan Posted January 11, 2016 Share #6 Posted January 11, 2016 It says something about a country that has to get its daughters to go fight like its sons do. Take what you will from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagmanL6 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #7 Posted January 11, 2016 It is getting kind of old that the military is used as a social incubator. What is even more disheartening is that these decisions are being made against the advise and recommendations of military leaders. Those who have served understand the difference of serving in combat and being in the infantry or any other combat arm. That is a pertinent point that has been lost in all these discussions. Yes, there is such a thing as unit cohesion and it can not be legislated or mandated into existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL THE PATCH Posted January 11, 2016 Share #8 Posted January 11, 2016 Agreed, let women stay in a supporting role. Not combat. Does the govt Always have to cave in to satisfy a few " slighted" people. Make everything fair. NO. Life's not fair so deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #9 Posted January 11, 2016 Women have been fighting for their countries for years. For instance, there were top female snipers and aces in Russia during WWII. The US has been behind the times and is still in this archaic mode of thinking women are weak and unequal to men. Basically, get over it. Women served in combat on US soil dating back to the American Revolution. If a woman wants to serve her country in a combat role then more power to her. As for a Marine speaking about co-ed training, one female Marine was quoted in the article: “Germano said the incident and her experience at the unit served to prove that training female Marines separately encouraged underperformance and lower expectations.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #10 Posted January 11, 2016 It is getting kind of old that the military is used as a social incubator. What is even more disheartening is that these decisions are being made against the advise and recommendations of military leaders. The military is not a social incubator. I get tired of hearing this argument. Women have been fighting for equal pay/rights in the work force for a LONG time. The military is the one behind the times. Women serve as police officers, fire fighters, and first responders all over the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BagmanL6 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #11 Posted January 11, 2016 The fundamental difference in how you see things and how I see things is summed up in your comparison of the military to the rest of the work force. My opinion is based on serving 20 years as a grunt and I stand by it. It is unfortunate that you tire of the argument but I personally don't care. I'm not here to debate with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor996 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #12 Posted January 11, 2016 It is getting kind of old that the military is used as a social incubator. What is even more disheartening is that these decisions are being made against the advise and recommendations of military leaders. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #13 Posted January 11, 2016 The fundamental difference in how you see things and how I see things is summed up in your comparison of the military to the rest of the work force. My opinion is based on serving 20 years as a grunt and I stand by it. It is unfortunate that you tire of the argument but I personally don't care. I'm not here to debate with you. I tire of the argument that people think the military is a social incubator. I tire of the fact that so many men in the military are completely closed-minded and will not discuss this issue. The fact that you state "I'm not here to debate with you" shows that you will NOT look at this discussion objectively. You bring 20 years as a grunt to the discussion. I bring 54 years of being a woman fighting for the right for women to be treated equally.Why won't you debate me in a civil manner? If a woman WANTS to serve her country and is capable of serving her country, why not let her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssggates Posted January 11, 2016 Share #14 Posted January 11, 2016 I am Army, but I have experienced the integration of females into combat units first-hand over the past year. While I respect and admire the females in my platoon for their service and treat them no differently than my other Soldiers, I have experienced issues and challenges I never thought I would since they arrived. They have also each approached me privately about things they cannot do or are not comfortable with doing. I have been forced to make special allotments and arrangements for my females, and this goes against everything I believe as a leader. It will forever be difficult to convince those who have not experienced this first-hand, but that does not change the facts. Best of luck to the Marine Corps, if anyone can handle it they can. The cons just outweigh the pros in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarbridge Posted January 11, 2016 Share #15 Posted January 11, 2016 This thread is not about personal ideals but about the institution changing to a different system. It is out of our control.Post your thoughts...make your point then,move on, we all have opinions. I doubt this thread will change someone's conviction. If the point-counter point starts,the thread will be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #16 Posted January 11, 2016 I am Army, but I have experienced the integration of females into combat units first-hand over the past year. While I respect and admire the females in my platoon for their service and treat them no differently than my other Soldiers, I have experienced issues and challenges I never thought I would since they arrived. They have also each approached me privately about things they cannot do or are not comfortable with doing. I have been forced to make special allotments and arrangements for my females, and this goes against everything I believe as a leader. It will forever be difficult to convince those who have not experienced this first-hand, but that does not change the facts. Best of luck to the Marine Corps, if anyone can handle it they can. The cons just outweigh the pros in my opinion. Thank you for your first-hand response. If this integration has been going on over the past year, I am sure there are some "kinks" to iron out. Would better training starting from prior to enlistment help? Would better training prepare these men and women for what to expect and reduce this list of "cons"? You mentioned women approaching you. Have men also approached you with any type of concern not just concerns about the women in their unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssggates Posted January 11, 2016 Share #17 Posted January 11, 2016 Thank you for your first-hand response. If this integration has been going on over the past year, I am sure there are some "kinks" to iron out. Would better training starting from prior to enlistment help? Would better training prepare these men and women for what to expect and reduce this list of "cons"? You mentioned women approaching you. Have men also approached you with any type of concern not just concerns about the women in their unit? The Army has saturated us with training leading up to and continuing through the integration. More of that type of training is not the answer. To answer your question, I believe equal standards and requirements beginning in basic training is the key. That means females wishing to serve in combat arms line units should be required to meet the same physical fitness standards as the males. Does this mean that fewer women will be able to serve in these units? Yes. But those who make it will have the respect of their male counterparts and be satisfied knowing that they have truly earned their place. As for males approaching me with concerns, yes it happens. Although the males are far less likely to tell me they are having trouble physically doing the tasks. The difference is in the way the issues are handled. If a male can't "hack it" they will eventually be off to a support company somewhere. When I have brought up similar concerns with females it is the proverbial elephant in the room, no one wants to discuss it. I have been told to "just make it work''. And that perpetuates the problem. People on the outside say "see, we told you they could all do it". Meanwhile we just keep our mouths shut and don't rock the boat. Everyone wants good bullets on their OERs and NCOERs after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #18 Posted January 11, 2016 The Army has saturated us with training leading up to and continuing through the integration. More of that type of training is not the answer. To answer your question, I believe equal standards and requirements beginning in basic training is the key. That means females wishing to serve in combat arms line units should be required to meet the same physical fitness standards as the males. Does this mean that fewer women will be able to serve in these units? Yes. But those who make it will have the respect of their male counterparts and be satisfied knowing that they have truly earned their place. This is exactly what I have seen the women say they want as well. Equal standards and requirements. Thanks again for your input... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normaninvasion Posted January 11, 2016 Share #19 Posted January 11, 2016 My question would be what would the outcome be is strict standards were required and hypothetically a large portion of women didn't meet the cut? Would there be a call to lower standards, claim discrimination, or acceptance and adherence to the requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutiger83 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #20 Posted January 11, 2016 My question would be what would the outcome be is strict standards were required and hypothetically a large portion of women didn't meet the cut? Would there be a call to lower standards, claim discrimination, or acceptance and adherence to the requirements? You are putting the cart before the horse. These are hypothetical questions that have no bearing on what needs to happen right now. My question would be, why not let these women try first then address that situation later if it even happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMCR79 Posted January 11, 2016 Share #21 Posted January 11, 2016 If there were females in my Platoon I would have had difficulty "keeping focused" Bill Did I miss something or was this thread about basic training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted January 11, 2016 Share #22 Posted January 11, 2016 Yup...who would have thought this one wouldn't stay on track Closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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