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Original submarine engineering dolphins with letter "E"


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Hi all,

 

Some time back there was a thread which I posted in about gold dolphins with a block letter "E" below the sub bow. This was the first version of the submarine engineering duty insignia. But no matter how I search I can't find the thread on the forum now.

 

Anyway, for future reference, I wanted to post this about the short-lived "letter E" version of the badge, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about it online. Unfortunately I do not have a picture (maybe someone with an example in their collection could post one!).

 

This is from the original edition of U.S. Navy Uniform Regulations, 1951. The "E" badge may have been authorized earlier, in 1950, but I don't have a reference for that. The insignia was not illustrated.

 

post-3982-0-80659500-1449335928.jpg

 

The "E" insignia was changed to the more familiar propeller version by Change Memorandum 1-2 (Advance Notice of Change No. 1 to USN Uniform Regulations 1951), dated February 6, 1953:

 

post-3982-0-27400700-1449336152.jpg

 

Justin B.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just as an FYI, Engineering Duty are part of the restricted line--they're more of the naval architecture strain. They're not part of the ship's Engineering Department, and you wouldn't see these on guys who were part of ship's company.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Justin,

I too thought I had read or posted somewhere regarding the early Submarine Engineering Duty Officer (EDO) badge. All I could find was an old post in this thread: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/97499-wwii-pre-wwii-submarine-dolphins/

Page 1, post #23 had images that were taken down and could not be re-added when I was trying to fix missing photo links last year. It's possible I was thinking of this dead post, but like you have been unable to find anything else here regarding the topic.

I would be very curious to see/read that page in the original 1951 Uniform Regulations, as all I can find online, already shows the apparent change made to it, with no mention of the earlier pattern badge. The regulations I find are dated 10 August 1951.

 

I'll add some more information here that may be of interest to you. First, here's a copy from the October 1953 Navy "All Hands" magazine discussing the change to insignia, including the Submarine EDO badge. It discusses the early pattern insignia. The All Hands magazine was not official but many considered it semi-official when it came to information regarding uniforms and it usually listed the Alnav's, Buper's Notices, etc. in it, though I did not find one relating to this change.


* Please note that I consolidated the two actual pages into one for ease of showing it here.

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I also found this while searching other material. It's a page out of the Crow's Nest; Issue 13, page 25, showing the early badge. I'll post the page here and a enlargement in the next post.

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I don't know this "Stephen Decatur Rohde" of if he is a member here or not? I do not have the copies of the 1951 or 1953 Bluejackets Manuals he calls out, but they may hold answers to finding out exactly when the original pattern EDO badge was established. I am not sure of the dates he listed here or how he came about with them.

 

 

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Lastly, though I do not have an early example with the added "E", I can show you an early version of the second badge, circa 1950's.

 

This one is hallmarked Gemsco A.G. O. G-2 and I have another pic in the forum section on hallmarks where you can see the actual hallmark better.

 

That's all I got, hope it helps some.

 

Tim

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  • 1 month later...

Here's the actual page (excerpt) from Change Memorandum 1-2 (Advance Notice of Change No. 1 to USN Uniform Regulations 1951), dated February 6, 1953 that Justin called out earlier.

 

I find it somewhat telling that all the illustrations had to be replaced with the new designs except the EDO pin, which was to be added to the list. So, I don't think we are going to see anything in the official uniform regulations that show the earlier design badge with "E" superimposed on the dolphins. I am curious if there was ever a notice, memorandum, or letter discussing the early badge and design or the reasoning for changing it.

 

I would really like to find a copy of the original, unchanged 1951 Uniform Regulations to read more.

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Thanks a lot for the additions, Tim! What I posted in the first post is from an original, un-updated copy of the 1951 Uniform Regs. There was no illustration. I would like to have something official for the 1950 date mention in post #5 and #6 but haven't been able to find it yet.

 

Still hoping someone will post an example from their collection, too!

 

Justin B.

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Morning Justin,

 

No problem, always happy to help and share information like this. I know it gets frustrating looking for the small details and never seeming to get anywhere, spending hours upon hours sometimes looking something, worse finding something of interest and not saving it then trying to go back and find it again and never do.

 

By chance, do you have a link or something where I can read that original 1951 Regulation? PM me if you don't want to post it here. Much appreciated! I'll keep looking.

 

Tim

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By chance, do you have a link or something where I can read that original 1951 Regulation? PM me if you don't want to post it here. Much appreciated! I'll keep looking.

 

 

Sorry, if I could post a link to a book on my shelf I would!

 

Justin B.

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:D Keep that! I'm sure it will be worth it's weight in gold one day considering how many "like publications" are being offered for sale and at good sums now. Still looking in old antique shops for those Bluejackets Manuals and even they are getting harder to find anymore.

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:D Keep that! I'm sure it will be worth it's weight in gold one day considering how many "like publications" are being offered for sale and at good sums now. Still looking in old antique shops for those Bluejackets Manuals and even they are getting harder to find anymore.

 

I was lucky to find this one, some updates had been added to the binder in the front but none of the original material had been taken out and replaced. Paid $12 for it. I also got a copy of the 1959 USN UR with all the changes through 1966, they just kept putting the updates in the back of the binder and leaving the earlier stuff intact. Luckily someone was too lazy to pull out and replace all the changed pages like they were supposed to!

 

Justin B.

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That's actually the correct (old) way to make changes, so the past information gets retained to show exactly what and when something changed. I just see more commands doing the simple pull & replace to save time/shelf space and the mentality seems to have moved towards "who cares what it used to be". Turns out, historians and collectors do!

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That's actually the correct (old) way to make changes, so the past information gets retained to show exactly what and when something changed.

 

Well, all the change orders I have from the '50s and '60s say "Reprinted sheets attached hereto will be inserted in their proper place and the superseded [or corresponding] sheets removed." The book would be really hard to use, otherwise.

 

Justin B,

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No doubt and in cases where the old sheets remained, they moved them all the way to the back of the reference.

 

I've even seen cases where some ships office didn't install the changes at all, only put them in the back, but any command admin inspection took care of that and it usually didn't happen again! I guess it always comes down to "who's" in charge and how much they want to do the job.

 

Tim

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  • 4 months later...

Thought I would bump this topic up one more time with some more information.

 

I acquired a copy of the 1950 Bluejacket's Manual, 14th edition, to see if there might be some enlightening information on this topic. Per the Bluejacket's manual website, there were 27 printings between 1950 and 1957 of this 14th edition alone and figure my copy is the 15th printing. The edition was not updated until 1957.

 

The early pattern Submarine Engineering Duty Officer badge is shown on page 64, "Figure 5-5 -- Breast Insignia" however, there is no written narrative calling out this or the previous figure. The subject of officer breast insignia is not discussed at all. Possibly there were many changes ongoing at the time and it was left out or forgotten by the time it was reprinted?

 

Either way, here's a copy of the page showing Figure 5.5 and the insignia in question. I was also a bit surprised that they were still showing the "deep wave" pattern of dolphins for the basic officer qualification badge this late in the game.

 

Anyone have more to add yet?

 

Tim

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Justin,

 

I found another "unofficial" reference source that gives the same dates as those shown in post #6, though still nothing official yet. If those dates are legit, the information might be listed in one of these BuPers Circular Letters from 1950. If you or anyone knows how to find those or a link to old Alnav Bulletins and Ltrs, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Tim

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Thanks for keeping the info coming, Tim! Still hoping someone posts one from their collection. I have tried and tried to find that old thread with the photo but can't come up with it.

 

Justin B.

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PM inbound!

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Those are sharp!

 

The first one is interesting as the design is of the later issue badges, circa 1960s & '70s and I've seen a few with this sunken reverse. I've seen a similar piece with the "7" mounted on the center (assume it represented Submarine Squadron 7 - Yokosuka, Japan) that sold back in June (attached). Really like that "E"!

 

The center one appears to be a Gemsco deep wave pattern but the "E" is more block style font than the illustration posted above. The anodized finish kind of puts me off as there are a lot of copies of dolphins on the market that look similar but, not having it in hand, hard to say for sure. It appears to show that die flaw we see on the Gemsco deep wave dolphins but weaker in strike. I've attached a small snippet of a deep wave example for comparison.

 

The last example you show looks similar to some we see on Ebay from time to time. The reverse looks soft and some speculate cast but the more and more I look at these, I wonder if they are not okay after all and I like that pattern "E" as it is the pattern we see in the illustrations. So, ...?

 

Thanks for showing these and adding to the thread!

 

Tim

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A friendly reminder that my images and material posted here are not to be considered "fair use" or "public domain". If you want to legally use my material outside this forum, for any purpose, my express written permission is requested and required beforehand.

 

Thank you.

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