wblastoff Posted November 23, 2015 Share #1 Posted November 23, 2015 I humbly ask for any assistance you can offer in my search to find Native American ownership (?) of this item, my path has lead me here This sword is “supposed” to have been scavenged from an Indian battlefield, Montana in the late 19th century. Upon reading this both my friend and I (who is also knowledgeable about swords) belly laughed out loud and immediately dismissed this claim. This sword is Prussian Blucher 1811 and these are always veteran pick-ups from WW1. I sent pictures to some experts and everyone agreed it was most probably a Prussian 1811 based on length and tip. So my friend and I had a good laugh and I put this sword away. This sword continued to nag at me in the back of my mind. (If you are a collector you know an object has a story, and when it has not been told to your satisfaction, it pulls you back to it.) This sword pulled me back to it. I proceeded to go over this sword (painstakingly) centimeter by centimeter with 25x magnification and then it appeared on the spine not legible to the naked eye “Josh H. Reddel & Co” This was not a Prussian sword but an English Model 1796 light Calvary sword. This sword had been cut and rounded at the tip. So I think, “ok cool”, but this still makes it an antique during the Indian Wars and puts it over 4,000 miles away from the plains of Montana. I truly believe, (I have not verified this) that 19 century U.S. Army regulations would not allow a U.S. Trooper to carry this “antique” sword in the 1870’s and more importantly why would a trooper want to? (I’m guessing he would be ridiculed!?) So I get a headache and put this sword away again, until I stumble upon this on the internet, Native American Weapons: “There are many references in literature – descriptions, drawings and pictographs of swords by North American Indians Many of them were probably English, Model l796, light cavalry swords which were surpluses after the Napoleonic Wars These were sold throughout the American West, and one outlet in the l840s was the Bordeaux Trading Post near present- day Chadron. They became a type of status symbol, particularly amongst some of the plains tribes”. It starts to appear to me that the story of this sword being picked-up on a Montana battlefield is not as funny as I had originally thought. What I have is an English Model 1796 light cavalry sword made by Josh H.Reddel & Co. with an inscription. This sword “may” have possibly been picked off of a Montana battlefield. It “may” have been owned by the Sioux. It may have historical significance and I may awake from this and commit Hari-kari with this sword. Sword: This sword has been exposed to the elements on the right side know more than a few years. (I base that on my experience with swords, some 25 odd years, with the emphasize on odd) 1796 English light Calvary sword Manufacturer: Josh H. Reddel & Co Length blade 30.5” (shortened, spear point removed) Sword hallmarks: Josh H. Reddel & Co (spine) Small English crown (right side fuller hardly visible through rust, visible only with 25x magnification only) Inscription in gold almost completely faded: “Found at Gen Custers Slaughter By The Indians” (Gold paint appears period to 1870-1910) Now as your laughing, for I did... can you let me know your opinion please? I purchased the sword myself in New Jersey. I will never get any more info from the seller. The gentleman who sold the sword had no knowledge of swords or that the inscription was on it. This was a doorstop to the seller! I know through my research that “The 7th Calvary boxed up and sent back their swords to Fort Abraham Lincoln” on the way to the Little Big Horn. Realizing that this type of artifact can easily have gold lettering added I know, It would be beyond what is luck and what becomes provenance for this sword to have been owned by Native Americans. I believe that therefore should this sword be “proven” then it is only by the will of the "Great Spirit" that it has come to light to tell its story. Again I humbly ask please send me your input as I have reached the end of my path Best regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMariner Posted November 23, 2015 Share #2 Posted November 23, 2015 Wow, this truly could be an incredible piece of history you have here my friend, but i can't imagine there is anyway to prove this claim it will always be a mystery sword in some sense! Thanks for sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normaninvasion Posted November 23, 2015 Share #3 Posted November 23, 2015 As stated above, I'm afraid there is no way to link this sword to Indians or LBH. Interesting info regarding swords being offered at the trading post. I am sure there are a 1000 ways that this sword could have found it's way into native hands, unfortunately without good provenance or oral history there's not much to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted November 23, 2015 Share #4 Posted November 23, 2015 Whatever the truth of the matter it's a very intriguing story and I commend you for the detective work you've conducted so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlegwolf Posted December 5, 2015 Share #5 Posted December 5, 2015 Very interesting. Important to remember that regulations and uniformity were not as we see them today. Much looser, and a lot of variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retread12345 Posted December 13, 2015 Share #6 Posted December 13, 2015 The gold painted lettering is interesting. After the CW many GAR halls and lodges painted their enemy trophies and weapons gold. Keep digging !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wblastoff Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted December 15, 2015 "Bill,It is entirely possible what you have could be something important. You are correct, the troops crated their sabers at the Powder River Depot. There were two officers however, 1LT Charles De Rudio and 1LT Edward Mathey who possibly carried theirs. De Rudio is fairly well believed, but fewer people know of Mathey's.De Rudio is rather interesting. In the summer of 1870, De Rudio commanded Company K and escorted a train of settlers in Kansas. They presented him with a saber as a thank-you for his protection. In addition, the man was educated at the Austrian Military Academy and served on Garibaldi’s staff in Italy. He was the son of Count Ercole Placedo di Rudio and Countess Elisabetta de Domini. He participated in an assassination attempt on Napoleon III. He was sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted to life and he was sent to French Guiana. So he may have had such an instrument and could have carried it at the LBH. It is unknown-- at least to me-- if he retained it after the battle, but it is doubtful because of the situation he found himself in.There are always accounts of Indians with all sorts of weapons and those accounts could very well be correct because of their Anglicized names. For example, there were three warriors at the battle whose name(s) contained the word sword. One was a member of the Bad Face band better known as Hunts The Enemy, an Oglala, also known as Owns Sword. He wouldn't have that name unless it were true. A second was also an Oglala, known merely as Sword; and the third was called Wooden Sword.While not definitive by any means, there is every likelihood one of these fellows could have been the owner of your little gem.Hope this helps.Best wishes,Fred." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normaninvasion Posted December 15, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 15, 2015 Don't mean to be a bummer but the Ogala Sioux that are named, there is no mention of them being at LBH from the little research that I did. Hunts The Enemy aka Owns Sword aka George Sword was a nephew of Red Cloud in 1876 he accepted white influence later becoming a Captain of Indian Police at Pine Ridge in 1877, also was doing Wild West Show with Buffalo Bill. No mention of him at LBH. George Sword recieved his name "Sword Owner or Owns Sword after his brother a shirt wearer was killed in 1877. Sword maybe the same as above Wooden Sword is listed as "unknown" as having participated in LBH. Very hard to put a name to an item with very little to go on. jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bginther123 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #9 Posted February 3, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bginther123 Posted February 3, 2016 Share #10 Posted February 3, 2016 I realize now that the text in my pictures isn't legible. The research article from 1980s Museum of Fur Trade describes in detail how the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre became a highly desired trade good with the Indians. I became very interested in the topic as I obtained the Sabre in the picture above that was plowed up in a field in the early 1900s in northwest Kansas by a homesteader. The article cites 20 plus sources. Let me know and I can provide a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wblastoff Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share #11 Posted February 7, 2016 I realize now that the text in my pictures isn't legible. The research article from 1980s Museum of Fur Trade describes in detail how the 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre became a highly desired trade good with the Indians. I became very interested in the topic as I obtained the Sabre in the picture above that was plowed up in a field in the early 1900s in northwest Kansas by a homesteader. The article cites 20 plus sources. Let me know and I can provide a copy. That is invaluable info. Yes please contact me via email. [email protected]. Thank you so much!!! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunmore1774 Posted February 7, 2016 Share #12 Posted February 7, 2016 It certainly is plausible, but as anyone who has dealt with Native-used/owned items knows, proving provenance is a VERY tricky thing. When it is proved, it pays off in spades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SG_1st_Cav Posted February 7, 2016 Share #13 Posted February 7, 2016 Very interesting sword! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bginther123 Posted February 12, 2016 Share #14 Posted February 12, 2016 Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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