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pre & WWII Navy cap tally - Real or what?


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I am not very familiar with Navy items, and was wondering if these were the real deal?

 

Before you ask, this is the only picture I have.

 

There are some pretty big name sakes and was wondering what they might be worth as well?

 

Some others I am not familiar with and believe they may be pre-WWII.

 

What does USRS stand for? I could not get a google hit.

 

Thanks for the opinions and values,

Daniel

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Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

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USRS is for the Revenue Cutter Service. I just learned that not long ago. It's mentioned here in the thread about this Sampson medal: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/219850-why-so-much-for-this-sampson

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Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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Ahh - I see....which would play in line with these appearing to be older tally's?

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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Ahh - I see....which would play in line with these appearing to be older tally's?

 

 

I don't have a clue, but that Iowa one is really pretty!!!

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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Thanks Dave...never too old to learn...

 

 

No worries...I'm only a week ahead of you in learning about it! :D

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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Don't really know if the ones you've posted pics of are real or not. But, "NCHS" is selling reproductions of US WWII ship's cap tallies on eBay. Plus there's a company, Soar Valley Weaving, in the UK that will custom make even just one tally for a few dollars.

Looking for:

 

1. CIB with M16 instead of 1795 Musket

2. Rarer current era brassards and armbands

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

 

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All of these tallies are old originals.

 

Most, maybe all with the exception of the Iowa and red New York, were on S & S Firearms Sales lists in the 1970's/1980's, and thus show up from time to time.

 

In the case of the two USRS ribbons, ​the USRS stands for "Reserve Ship". This is where some confusion/mystery sneaks in, because I think that early on, some Receiving Ships sometimes were Reserve Ships. And later, meaning sometime after 1900, but before WW I, the "R.S." did become to mean Receiving Ship. However, in the case of these two ribbons, both ships were Reserve Ships at one time.

 

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All of these tallies are old originals.

 

Most, maybe all with the exception of the Iowa and red New York, were on S & S Firearms Sales lists in the 1970's/1980's, and thus show up from time to time.

 

In the case of the two USRS ribbons, ​the USRS stands for "Reserve Ship". This is where some confusion/mystery sneaks in, because I think that early on, some Receiving Ships sometimes were Reserve Ships. And later, meaning sometime after 1900, but before WW I, the "R.S." did become to mean Receiving Ship. However, in the case of these two ribbons, both ships were Reserve Ships at one time.

 

 

Looks like I stand corrected...always learning new stuff!

 

My favorite is still the Iowa one... :)

 

Any thoughts that the red New York one might be for a middy instead of regular Navy use?

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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Dave, I think the you are still right!

 

In looking at the Sampson you posted, I think the RS means "Revenue Service", but I don't know for sure. Typically Revenue cutters have USRC on their ribbons, but some after they were brought into Navy service, have USS.

 

In looking at the Windom's history, it is hard for me to tell what designation the Navy might have assigned to it....meaning I think there is a possibility they thought of it as a Reserve Ship. Still don't know what I think about "Revenue Service" as the correct answer....it seems logical, but I don't have anything to support it...would be neat if this thread turned up the answer.

 

There are other designations that ended up on tallies that have not been fully flushed out. USFS used from the time around the Spanish American war comes to mind as an example. That stands for "Fighting Ship", but USS was more commonly used at the same time for the same ships, so again the exact moment of separation and the why are hard to nail down.

 

As far as the red tally, that one is a souvenir type that was given out at ship board dances, port visits, and Navy Days. They come in a number of colors. These also come in black, but if you look up by the Alarm ribbon, you will see the end of anchor, which the majority of this type of tally has at both ends....not all...just most.

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Dave, I think the you are still right!

 

In looking at the Sampson you posted, I think the RS means "Revenue Service", but I don't know for sure. Typically Revenue cutters have USRC on their ribbons, but some after they were brought into Navy service, have USS.

 

In looking at the Windom's history, it is hard for me to tell what designation the Navy might have assigned to it....meaning I think there is a possibility they thought of it as a Reserve Ship. Still don't know what I think about "Revenue Service" as the correct answer....it seems logical, but I don't have anything to support it...would be neat if this thread turned up the answer.

 

There are other designations that ended up on tallies that have not been fully flushed out. USFS used from the time around the Spanish American war comes to mind as an example. That stands for "Fighting Ship", but USS was more commonly used at the same time for the same ships, so again the exact moment of separation and the why are hard to nail down.

 

As far as the red tally, that one is a souvenir type that was given out at ship board dances, port visits, and Navy Days. They come in a number of colors. These also come in black, but if you look up by the Alarm ribbon, you will see the end of anchor, which the majority of this type of tally has at both ends....not all...just most.

 

 

It would be good to confirm it...when I googled USRS, very little came up (that's how I found the other post!) Time to do some deeper googling, methinks... :)

 

(As an aside, I'm glad they didn't stick with USFS...I would have thought of a ship with a pine tree on it anytime it was mentioned!) :D

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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I did find from the Navy History and Heritage Command that they referred to a particular USRS ship (in this case the USRS Apache) as "a revenue cutter"...so I'm assuming the USRS really is Revenue Service. Interesting!

Only a weak society needs government protection or intervention before it pursues its resolve to preserve the truth. Truth needs neither handcuffs nor a badge for its vindication. -Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy

Peace is not the absence of war, but the defense of hard-won freedom. -Anton LaGuardia


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Man - I really learned a lot just by asking a simple question! Had no idea ay of this took place. And probably never would have.

 

With all that being said, would these be worth anything on the open market? Would there be interest?

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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I did find from the Navy History and Heritage Command that they referred to a particular USRS ship (in this case the USRS Apache) as "a revenue cutter"...so I'm assuming the USRS really is Revenue Service. Interesting!

That is neat Dave! It also can mean both Reserve Ship and Receiving Ship...which makes this all pretty interesting.

 

As far as the two tallies in this thread...those ships were not in the revenue service or receiving ships...

 

​Another thing to factor in, is if you notice, only the Iowa ribbon appears to have been used. S & S got much of their stock from Bannerman's, and I believe these...less the red one and the Iowa...all show up in their old catalogs as well.

 

The "why" Bannerman had some of these tallies sometimes is a factor as well. I think some of their odd ball ribbons were possibly slight mistakes or most often, ribbons that were made up and the ship's designation changed or it went out of commission.

 

Except for ships that were actual Receiving Ships, I have never seen one of these USRS ribbons on a flat hat. Am not in any way trying to say none ever were, just that all the examples we see today are ones that were never used in actual service and likely came from surplus stock.

 

As far as value, I think the Iowa is the best of the bunch. You also have some nice examples of the different lettering and styles...so their should be interest in them.

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US Revenue Cutter Service cap ribbons have USRC and the ship's name. ( United States Revenue Cutter Bear ).

 

USRS before ship's name is United States Receiving Ship.

 

 

 

 

Wharf

In Peace and War, US Merchant Marine. WARNING: Dangerous Cargo. No Visitors, No Smoking, No Open Lights.

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These are all up for auction right now from one of the major antique auction houses. Also in this group are a bunch of fake painted leather AAF patches

 

Yea - was only going to go after these because they were pretty big names and would be nice to have for a little navy display, but after sleeping on it I think I am going to pass. Like you said, don't really know what Id do with all the fake leather patches too. I think I will keep my money safe for now.

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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US Revenue Cutter Service cap ribbons have USRC and the ship's name. ( United States Revenue Cutter Bear ).

 

USRS before ship's name is United States Receiving Ship.

Did a bit more digging into this USRS question, and have come to the conclusion that it is premature to come to any conclusion.

 

I think what Dave found, especially the evidence of the Sampson Medal top bar, shows that the Revenue Cutter Service used both USRC and USRS. However, I am not sure I have seen a cap tally with anything other than USRC on it, but that does not mean one could not exist with USRS....wonder if anyone has a Windom? I think the differentiation might be whether or not the Revenue Cutter Service considered the vessel a cutter or not....that would be interesting to explore.

 

I agree with Wharf, that Receiving Ship is the most excepted definition and use for the RS, because it was used for Receiving Ships throughout the timeframe of cap ribbons were worn.

 

However, the RS has sometimes meant Reserve Ship as well. This dates from sometime in the time period after the Civil War to the early 1890's. The Navy had severe funding problems then, and many ships were in limbo for many many years...usually for the lack of funds to finish refitting or modernizing them....and while they sat, these ships were in "reserve".

 

This is an area that needs more research, because I think Receiving Ships were...or could be...accounted for as being Reserve Ships as well, because in actuality, they could be returned to active service...and many were.

 

I don't know all the answers on this one. However, I do know from considering it over the years, and looking for the answers, that the correct answer is not that the RS always equals Receiving Ship. Most of the time it does, but not always. There are some Naval classification and accounting issues to consider ...many short lived...that also come into play...many put in place to make the Navy appear bigger and stronger than it actually was.

 

One thing I think is a bit of a lesson in all of this, is we too often look at things from a perspective where we already know the answer the military arrived at.

 

By about the turn of the last century, it is clear that the Navy decided RS equaled Receiving Ship. However, what we still do not know are all the instances it meant something else before that...and it is the details of those inconstancies that still need to be flushed out.

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Grumpy - thanks so much for all your help and research on this! This has been very neat to learn!

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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