Bodes Posted November 11, 2015 Share #1 Posted November 11, 2015 Forum Members, I'm going to look at an M1 carbine tomorrow.....First it has a number of early features which include flip rear sight, push-button safety, and early bolt....I'm not sure but believe the buttstock is the "high" wood variation....It has a Rockola made barrel and the handguard has been replaced with a metal "universal" style one........Now I know Quality Hardware only made receivers, so Rockola would have been one of the manufacturers who supplied barrels to them....Only problem is, it has a type 3 band with bayonet lug.....I've read some place that some of the Quality made carbines received lugs before the war ended.....My question is could an early Quality carbine have been upgraded to a type 3 band without also updating the other early features?.....My thoughts are no, but carbines are not my strong suit.....Any thoughts appreciated as usual....Bodes btw....How difficult is it to find an early two rivet handguard?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin6 Posted November 11, 2015 Share #2 Posted November 11, 2015 First, an early Quality Hardware M1 carbine would not have a bayonet lugged barrel band as original equipment. Also, even if the stock is highwood, because of the barrel band it will show the impression of the wider band on the wood. Second, it's not difficult to find a two-rivet handguard but it will take patience to find the correct one. You need to make sure the flip sight and the push safety aren't reproductions; it sounds like the carbine has undergone a series of "upgrades" and "restorations." Also, it will be very hard to find a correct early Type I barrel band for the carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted November 11, 2015 First, an early Quality Hardware M1 carbine would not have a bayonet lugged barrel band as original equipment. Also, even if the stock is highwood, because of the barrel band it will show the impression of the wider band on the wood. Second, it's not difficult to find a two-rivet handguard but it will take patience to find the correct one. You need to make sure the flip sight and the push safety aren't reproductions; it sounds like the carbine has undergone a series of "upgrades" and "restorations." Also, it will be very hard to find a correct early Type I barrel band for the carbine. Thanks for the reply and I understand and agree an early Quality made carbine did not leave the factory with a type 3 barrel band.....I believe production started in 1942 with the number 1,550,000.....The one I will be seeing is in the 1,581,XXX range....So, the receiver is one of the first 31,000 made....I was wondering if there were any chance it had a different barrel band placed on it w/o upgrading the rest of the out dated features?....And by reading your post, I got my answer and reconfirmed my thoughts....Factories did not do partial "rebuilds"....Have to admit it hadn't dawned on me that some of the parts may have been replaced with reproduction ones.... It's part of a strange story....A local antique dealer told me he had a guy bringing in a carbine for him to purchase....He told me he was going to buy it for $500 and would be happy just turning it over and sell it to me for $600......We talked on the phone and a few things were discussed....He than mentioned he had seen "internet prices" and that now there was no way he could accept just $600 for it.....He now felt he had a $1200-2500+ valued carbine and could not stay with his first quote....I'm supposed to see it tomorrow but have too many doubts in it to play his games....Thanks again for your time and information.....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted November 11, 2015 Share #4 Posted November 11, 2015 M1 carbines are really neat. Short and handy. Is seems like finding one as originally built is next to impossible. The person who changed the hand guard might have put the type 3 bayo lug band on. Probably no way to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted November 11, 2015 Share #5 Posted November 11, 2015 Hard to justify anything like $1200 to $2500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeuceGI Posted November 11, 2015 Share #6 Posted November 11, 2015 I've got an Inland that is a late 80s return from Korea,. It had a Type 3 barrel band and an adjustable rear sight, but the safety was the earlier push button type. I've got another Inland that is a late 40s Springfield Armory rebuild with the only updates being the the Type 3 band and the adjustable sight. At $600 you'd make out OK provided the gun has a good bore. $1200-$2000 tells me he must really like that gun because he'll own it for a very long time. Get pix if you see it. HTH Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted November 11, 2015 M1 carbines are really neat. Short and handy. Is seems like finding one as originally built is next to impossible. The person who changed the hand guard might have put the type 3 bayo lug band on. Probably no way to tell. I've got a couple spare carbine barrels...One has the early barrel band and the other has the type 3.....Looking at them, I'm thinking you have to remove the front sight to install....Not sure how involved of a process that is....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted November 11, 2015 Share #8 Posted November 11, 2015 My Uncle owns the only 100% original, early QH Carbine I have ever seen. He's not my "blood" Uncle, but has always been "Uncle Rick" since I was born, which explains why I say "his father" & not "my grandfather" in the this next sentence. His father was issued this carbine in WW2. I am not sure what he did during the war, because he also has a early leather flight jacket, M41 jacket, early pistol belt with the sword hanger, and a 1941 dated musette bag. All of which have his name & number in them. Back to the Carbine... I had a chance to look it over closely. I know for certain, despite any naysayers, that it is 100%, beyond any doubt, complete as it left the factory. It has a Rockola barrel, flip sight, push button safety and the original, although fragile, sling with C shaped ends. The stock has the early I-shaped oiler cut-out. If you end up purchasing the Carbine in question and would like to return it to its original configuration, I can set up a day to meet with my Uncle and document the parts in photos. I can only photograph the exterior parts however, as there is no way he would allow me break down the Carbine to see what's inside. It has never been opened up, although I have tried to tell him that it should, in the least, be field stripped, cleaned & oiled. Sorry for the long winded story, and for hijacking your thread! I hope you get the Carbine, they are great little rifles to own!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeuceGI Posted November 11, 2015 Share #9 Posted November 11, 2015 You do have to remove the front sight to replace the band. There is a staked pin that needs to be drifted out and the front sight can be drifted off. There is a key that keeps the sight indexed correctly on the barrel. Don't lose it. I used a drift punch with a hard nylon end to drive the sight off so as not to damage it or the finish. The sight pin can be re-staked with a hollow-tipped punch. Looking down on the front sight the retaining pin is drifted out from left to right. HTH Tim I've got a couple spare carbine barrels...One has the early barrel band and the other has the type 3.....Looking at them, I'm thinking you have to remove the front sight to install....Not sure how involved of a process that is....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted November 11, 2015 Share #10 Posted November 11, 2015 Morlock_- Congrats on an all original carbine. I'm sure they're out there. They are easy to break down without risk of harm. Why is your uncle so adamant about not opening it up. Then again if it's his - so he makes the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share #11 Posted November 12, 2015 My Uncle owns the only 100% original, early QH Carbine I have ever seen. He's not my "blood" Uncle, but has always been "Uncle Rick" since I was born, which explains why I say "his father" & not "my grandfather" in the this next sentence. His father was issued this carbine in WW2. I am not sure what he did during the war, because he also has a early leather flight jacket, M41 jacket, early pistol belt with the sword hanger, and a 1941 dated musette bag. All of which have his name & number in them. Back to the Carbine... I had a chance to look it over closely. I know for certain, despite any naysayers, that it is 100%, beyond any doubt, complete as it left the factory. It has a Rockola barrel, flip sight, push button safety and the original, although fragile, sling with C shaped ends. The stock has the early I-shaped oiler cut-out. If you end up purchasing the Carbine in question and would like to return it to its original configuration, I can set up a day to meet with my Uncle and document the parts in photos. I can only photograph the exterior parts however, as there is no way he would allow me break down the Carbine to see what's inside. It has never been opened up, although I have tried to tell him that it should, in the least, be field stripped, cleaned & oiled. Sorry for the long winded story, and for hijacking your thread! I hope you get the Carbine, they are great little rifles to own!! Morlok, Thanks for the input and no worry, you didn't hijack my thread.....Your Uncle's carbine sounds alot like the one I looked at today....Minus the bayonet lug and steel (Universal) handguard....Does his stock have any proofs?.....Mine has a faint ordnance stamp near the inlet for the sling.....It also has the high wood with I-shaped cut-out.....The barrel is a 1943 dated Rockola one....He's asking $800 for the rifle....It comes along with what looks like may be an early sling, three pouches, five magazines including one 30 rounder....It has a post war bayonet but doesn't have the scabbard but some sort of modern homemade sheath.....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface72 Posted November 12, 2015 Share #12 Posted November 12, 2015 I skipped the above replies and will say it in not likely the carbine was rebuilt without changing over the rear sight at a minimum. It's possible it is in original configuration and an owner along the way just wanted the bayonet lug.....However, these are all the tell tail signs of a "built gun" and demand scrutiny. Built carbine $600.00 to $800.00 in good condition. Just my opinion without pictures/personal inspection. If this is repetitive, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted November 12, 2015 I skipped the above replies and will say it in not likely the carbine was rebuilt without changing over the rear sight at a minimum. It's possible it is in original configuration and an owner along the way just wanted the bayonet lug.....However, these are all the tell tail signs of a "built gun" and demand scrutiny. Built carbine $600.00 to $800.00 in good condition. Just my opinion without pictures/personal inspection. If this is repetitive, my bad. Dogface, I cannot argue with any thing you wrote.....Even rifles that appear to be all original, may be the results of enterprising collectors with access and knowledge as to what constitutes factory correct pieces....This happened quite frequently while the supply of original parts were available....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted November 13, 2015 Share #14 Posted November 13, 2015 Morlock_- Congrats on an all original carbine. I'm sure they're out there. They are easy to break down without risk of harm. Why is your uncle so adamant about not opening it up. Then again if it's his - so he makes the rules.. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure! I think he has it in his head that doing anything at all to the Carbine will make it unoriginal. Plus, it was his fathers, and I think he just wants to keep it as it is. He may be afraid that something will be scratched or broken. After about 20 minutes, he gets a little nervous & puts it back in the gun locker. Like you said, he makes the rules, so I don't question it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted November 13, 2015 Share #15 Posted November 13, 2015 Morlok, Thanks for the input and no worry, you didn't hijack my thread.....Your Uncle's carbine sounds alot like the one I looked at today....Minus the bayonet lug and steel (Universal) handguard....Does his stock have any proofs?.....Mine has a faint ordnance stamp near the inlet for the sling.....It also has the high wood with I-shaped cut-out.....The barrel is a 1943 dated Rockola one....He's asking $800 for the rifle....It comes along with what looks like may be an early sling, three pouches, five magazines including one 30 rounder....It has a post war bayonet but doesn't have the scabbard but some sort of modern homemade sheath.....Bodes I didn't think to check the stock for markings. Next time I am over there, I will check it out! I will also snap a few good pictures & post them on the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3IDGarand Posted November 14, 2015 Share #16 Posted November 14, 2015 I hope you get the carbine for a good price. Earlier this summer I was so close to snagging at QHMC carbine for $500...then the guy went and looked at GB. I believe he still has the carbine, and is still trying to get over $1000 for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin6 Posted November 14, 2015 Share #17 Posted November 14, 2015 . To tell you the truth, I'm not sure! I think he has it in his head that doing anything at all to the Carbine will make it unoriginal. Plus, it was his fathers, and I think he just wants to keep it as it is. He may be afraid that something will be scratched or broken. After about 20 minutes, he gets a little nervous & puts it back in the gun locker. Like you said, he makes the rules, so I don't question it! With age comes a little perspective. I have a 100% original 1943 Underwood. I took it completely down once to record everything on it and then to put it back together. While disassembling the bolt, the extractor plunger took off like a rocket (I advise covering the take down tool and bolt with a white towel when removing the extractor; but for some reason this time, I didn't) and pinged off the wall, landing somewhere in the room. It would have been very easy to replace, as there is no way to tell if it's original or not (no markings and replacements are readily available), but then the Underwood would not be 100% original. It took me over two hours to slowly remove books, furniture and other things in the room until I saw the plunger on the floor. I will not be taking the Underwood apart again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted November 15, 2015 Author Share #18 Posted November 15, 2015 With age comes a little perspective. I have a 100% original 1943 Underwood. I took it completely down once to record everything on it and then to put it back together. While disassembling the bolt, the extractor plunger took off like a rocket (I advise covering the take down tool and bolt with a white towel when removing the extractor; but for some reason this time, I didn't) and pinged off the wall, landing somewhere in the room. It would have been very easy to replace, as there is no way to tell if it's original or not (no markings and replacements are readily available), but then the Underwood would not be 100% original. It took me over two hours to slowly remove books, furniture and other things in the room until I saw the plunger on the floor. I will not be taking the Underwood apart again. The same thing happened to me when I took a German P38 apart....When I bought it, the hammer wouldn't move when I pulled the trigger.....And as luck would have it, I was in the process of reassembling it when one of the small parts flew....Took me a while to find, but I was able to fix the pistol's problem.....Don't care to take it apart again...Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted November 15, 2015 Share #19 Posted November 15, 2015 With age comes a little perspective. I have a 100% original 1943 Underwood. I took it completely down once to record everything on it and then to put it back together. While disassembling the bolt, the extractor plunger took off like a rocket (I advise covering the take down tool and bolt with a white towel when removing the extractor; but for some reason this time, I didn't) and pinged off the wall, landing somewhere in the room. It would have been very easy to replace, as there is no way to tell if it's original or not (no markings and replacements are readily available), but then the Underwood would not be 100% original. It took me over two hours to slowly remove books, furniture and other things in the room until I saw the plunger on the floor. I will not be taking the Underwood apart again. I thought I could get away with not buying the bolt disassembly tool for the M1 Garand. The first time I took the bolt apart to clean it up, I was fine. When I was putting it back together, PING! That little guy shot out like a rocket! I bought the tool at the next show I went to! Best part is, I bought the tool from a older fellow in his 80s, and he makes the tools out of broken rifle scopes. It is by far the easiest bolt tool to use that I have seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo35 Posted November 15, 2015 Share #20 Posted November 15, 2015 Even when using a bolt take down tool, do it in a large zip lock bag, it will catch all those little flying objects. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMc. Posted January 31, 2016 Share #21 Posted January 31, 2016 Any import marks on the barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share #22 Posted March 29, 2016 Any import marks on the barrel? Nope....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share #23 Posted March 29, 2016 Gents, I have the carbine in my possession.....I haven't purchased is yet, but the guy let me bring it home to look it over......I haven't removed the bolt either, as I'm not familiar with how to field strip a Carbine....That's another time....But here is what I have so far...The markings are as follows: Front sight: "J Q" Rear sight (base): Left side: "S" Rt. Side: "Q"Flip sight: unmarkedMagazine release button: "LT Q"Buttstock sling well: "RMC"Bayonet Lug (Type 3): "K I"Safety (Push Button, not knurled): unmarkedDo I need to remove the bolt or can I assume I am home free?.....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambo35 Posted March 30, 2016 Share #24 Posted March 30, 2016 Hi Bodes. The safety should be unmarked, not checkered. Most all of the metal should have a "Q" as one of the manufacture code stamps, hammer, including the trigger housing, sear, extractor, bolt body, firing pin, trigger and spring tube housing. What proofs are either side if the stock, symbols, stamped letters? What you have listed so far look correct, except the barrel band. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodes Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share #25 Posted March 30, 2016 Hi Bodes. The safety should be unmarked, not checkered. Most all of the metal should have a "Q" as one of the manufacture code stamps, hammer, including the trigger housing, sear, extractor, bolt body, firing pin, trigger and spring tube housing. What proofs are either side if the stock, symbols, stamped letters? What you have listed so far look correct, except the barrel band. Chuck Chuck, It has the large ordnance stamp on the front side by the sling well of the buttstock.....Bodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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