cthomas Posted November 5, 2015 Share #1 Posted November 5, 2015 What do you guys make of this one? Talk about screwing with future generations of historians -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwb123 Posted November 5, 2015 Share #2 Posted November 5, 2015 Prior service as an observer with the RAF, or some other Commonwealth air arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted November 5, 2015 Share #3 Posted November 5, 2015 That is a US observer wing. It is NOT RFC. I would supposed that he qualified as both a pilot and an observer. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted November 5, 2015 Share #4 Posted November 5, 2015 My guess is he was among the combat observers that were offered pilot training after the wars end. I have a uniform from a similar well decorated observer that completed and rated pilot wings.. Cool image Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted November 5, 2015 Share #5 Posted November 5, 2015 Its just one of those things that makes this hobby so cool. Looks kind of like he has a Dibb (http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/wwi/us/croydibb.shtml) or Dunham wing (http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/wwi/us/presleyww1detailed.shtml) or maybe a Dallas wing variation. Great picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted November 6, 2015 Patrick - Thanks for taking a look at my image. I was hoping to hear from the wing experts about a possible manufacturer of those wings. Admittedly, I never studied wing variations before. So your comments are most welcomed. When I get a chance to compare the original image with the links you provided, I will certainly give it a shot. Also, thanks to the other USMF members for commenting on this unusual pic. It is certainly a head scratcher... - Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted November 6, 2015 Share #7 Posted November 6, 2015 Nice photo. He is wearing a discharge chevron but no Victory Medal ribbon. I would guess the photo was taken in the back yard immediately after he returned home in 1919. Can we assume wearing two different wings at the same time was contrary to regulations ? Wharf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share #8 Posted November 7, 2015 Wharf - that is a very safe assumption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted November 9, 2015 Share #9 Posted November 9, 2015 My guess is he was among the combat observers that were offered pilot training after the wars end. I have a uniform from a similar well decorated observer that completed and rated pilot wings.. Cool image Paul That is a strong possibility - I have a Sterling Silver 1919 pilot badge back marked From Official Die that belonged to 2/Lt. Paul C. Wienge from Augusta, Ga. During World War One he was an Observer with the 91st Aero Squadron and wore a French embroidered U.S. Observer wing; however, after the war and while still stationed overseas, he received additional training to become a pilot and won his duel wings. In regard to the two wings on the officers uniform in the picture. The image is too grainy to tell who might have made them but since both badges appear to be made of Sterling Silver it's probably a good bet that he never went overseas. Can it be assumed that wearing two different wings at the same time was contrary to regulations? Well we can be certain of one thing. . . there was never anything written in regulations against it. In addition to that, remember that a number of U. S. pilots who received their training in France wore both a metal French pilot brevet on the right side of their uniform and an American pilot embroidered wing on the left side. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted November 12, 2015 Share #10 Posted November 12, 2015 Chuck,Thank you for posting another terrific image from your wonderful collection of U.S. Aviation-related photographs! Even though you may not be a wing collector per se, your photographic contributions really add substance and meaning to this section of the Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Sgt CES Posted November 12, 2015 Share #11 Posted November 12, 2015 Great Photo !!!! Blue Skies Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 13, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted November 13, 2015 You are very welcome. It's a great pleasure to share the visual evidence with other wing nuts and aviation buffs. Cliff - thanks for replying to this post. I was hoping for your commentary. It never fails that I come away learning something new each time... - Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted November 14, 2015 Share #13 Posted November 14, 2015 That is a strong possibility - I have a Sterling Silver 1919 pilot badge back marked From Official Die that belonged to 2/Lt. Paul C. Wienge from Augusta, Ga. During World War One he was an Observer with the 91st Aero Squadron and wore a French embroidered U.S. Observer wing; however, after the war and while still stationed overseas, he received additional training to become a pilot and won his duel wings. In regard to the two wings on the officers uniform in the picture. The image is too grainy to tell who might have made them but since both badges appear to be made of Sterling Silver it's probably a good bet that he never went overseas. Can it be assumed that wearing two different wings at the same time was contrary to regulations? Well we can be certain of one thing. . . there was never anything written in regulations against it. In addition to that, remember that a number of U. S. pilots who received their training in France wore both a metal French pilot brevet on the right side of their uniform and an American pilot embroidered wing on the left side. Cliff He's wearing three overseas chevrons confirming 18 months overseas. Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted November 14, 2015 Share #14 Posted November 14, 2015 He's wearing three overseas chevrons confirming 18 months overseas. Bobgee They could be silver chevrons for stateside service. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share #15 Posted November 16, 2015 Chris - Funny you should mention that...I have a sneaky suspicion those are silver chevrons -Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwnorma Posted November 17, 2015 Share #16 Posted November 17, 2015 Chris - Funny you should mention that...I have a sneaky suspicion those are silver chevrons -Chuck Chuck, Are you holding out on us... By all means please share! Do you, perhaps, own this uniform, or know something about this young pilot? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share #17 Posted November 18, 2015 Chris - Neither. I have absolutely nothing to go on, besides the comments posted here. I was guessing silver chevrons because the tone of their reflection looks much like either of those silver wings. But I've long learned trying to decipher colors, tones, etc...in these old b/w images is very tricky at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker502 Posted November 18, 2015 Share #18 Posted November 18, 2015 Chuck, He's wearing a Sam Browne belt, I would learn toward an overseas aviator. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share #19 Posted November 18, 2015 Paul - Good point. That does push me more towards an overseas pilot, but not by much... I have a stateside aviator studio portrait wearing the Sam Browne. Then there's a neat photo of Lt. Ormer Locklear (aka The Great Waldo Pepper), that was taken stateside of Lt. Locklear wearing his Sam Browne with two silver OS chevrons. You see, Lt. Locklear never made it overseas, yet was allowed to wear the Sam Browne as a stateside flight instructor. If I find that picture again, I'll certainly post it. But I do believe these two examples are rare exceptions to that rule of thumb we aviation historians hold dear. - Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted November 18, 2015 Lt. Shirley Short and Lt. Ormer Locklear (right) at Barron Field ca. 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted November 18, 2015 Share #21 Posted November 18, 2015 I am not how much weight to give this, but I had heard that it was relatively rare to see pilots who were overseas wearing metal wings. It is much more common to see overseas pilots with the bullion wings. However, I suspect that many exceptions to that "rule" exist. But taking that at face value, it may lend credence to the idea that this was a stateside pilot, not an overseas pilot. Also, from what I can see, the observer wing looks to be bullion, is that true or do you think that they are metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted November 18, 2015 Share #22 Posted November 18, 2015 I had heard that it was relatively rare to see pilots who were overseas wearing metal wings. It is much more common to see overseas pilots with the bullion wings. However, I suspect that many exceptions to that "rule" exist. But taking that at face value, it may lend credence to the idea that this was a stateside pilot, not an overseas pilot. With regards to metal wings worn during WW1. While the regulations were much more relaxed stateside that was not the case overseas were the Army went strictly by the book which meant that only bullion embroidered wings could be worn on the uniform and no exceptions were allowed. . . if caught. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted November 19, 2015 Share #23 Posted November 19, 2015 I believe I may have seen one or two photos of overseas pilots wearing metal wings, but it is rare. The fact is, to my knowledge, there are no WWI vintage metal pilot wings that were positively known to have been made in France, Italy or England. Cliff or Russ may know of some examples, but I had a conversation a few years ago with the Wing King and he couldn't identify any foreign-made metal wings either. There is a story of in one of the books on WWI aviators (I can't recall which one) where the author talks about one of the newly arrived pilots from Stateside gambling away his metal pilot wings for bullion wings so that he could be more like the "old hands". I think it was in a book about Frank Luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cthomas Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share #24 Posted November 20, 2015 Patrick - I can't be certain if they're bullion or not. I'm leaning towards bullion... I was also very intrigued by there being no bona fide examples of overseas manufactured US aviator wings. It left me scratching my head. Yet we all know of the various examples of foreign made aviation collar insignia. Very weird... Now Cliff, I'm sure glad you threw that caveat at the end about metal wings not being worn overseas ("...if caught"). I do have a couple of photographic examples of pilots breaking this rule, the least of which show aviation NCOs clearly wearing wings above their left breast pockets. Unfortunately, the image(s) are just blurry enough to rule out if they're bullion...or not. - Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted November 22, 2015 Share #25 Posted November 22, 2015 With regards to metal wings worn during WW1. While the regulations were much more relaxed stateside that was not the case overseas were the Army went strictly by the book which meant that only bullion embroidered wings could be worn on the uniform and no exceptions were allowed. . . if caught. Cliff I don't doubt there are some impromptu images and privately purchased studio photographs of USAS Pilots in France wearing metal wings during WWI. But as a litmus test to Cliff's statement above, I'd like to share this original 1918 group photograph I have of the A.E.F. Second Aviation Instruction Center, Tours, France. Unfortunately, it doesn't copy well, but this large photograph, in hand, has wonderful resolution and clarity. With a 10X loop, I was able to see, with excellent detail, about ninety percent of the badges worn by this group of over one hundred U.S. Pilots... and every one of them is wearing a bullion Pilot's badge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now