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Pineapple Army 21st Infantry 'Gimlet' Regiment at Schofield Barracks, T.H. 1921-1941


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Salvage Sailor

Or is it one of these departing soldiers - photo is marked "our last day at Schofield Barracks"

 

21st_Infantry_023b.jpg

 

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Johan Willaert
Nice photo of the rigs - anyone wish to venture on their make, model & year?

 

My best guess would be Marmon-Herrington Trucks from the early 30's...

 

These pictures are very nice! I notice non of them are wearing SSI on the tan shirts. Was the 21IR already part of the 24ID? Or weren't SSI worn on the shirts? Can you make out the SSI on the Service Coats? Is it Hawaiian Dept or 24th, or 25th ID?

 

Would they have worn SSI at the time of the attack on PH? ?

 

Nice to see Regimental Crests on the Campaign Hats

 

Good Job!!

 

JOhan

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Or is it one of these departing soldiers - photo is marked "our last day at Schofield Barracks"

 

 

The 21st Infantry Regiment arrived in the Territory of Hawaii on November 28th 1921. I can't recall when the 21st IR Distinctive Insignia was approved (maybe Wailuna can provide an answer to this) but it was sometime in the mid-1920's. The soldier are correctly wearing their DI on their campaign hats and it wasn't common practice to wear DI's on the lapels or collars of a uniform shirts(again maybe Wailuna can provide the G.O. on this) during the time that the photos were taken circa 1930's; however the soldiers would have worn their DI's on their tunic collars including the shoulder sleeve insignia (see posted picture). I think it was the Officers that had worn their DI's on their Tunic's lapel during this time. The G.O. change sometime during WWII and that is when you start seeing a more wide spread use of DI's being worn on inner garment shirt. The War Department approved the "Hawaiian Division" insignia on September 9, 1921 and most all soldiers up at Schofield Barracks would had worn a number of locally made (typically the units tailor shop in their quads) of melton wool on wool constructions or of a felt material composite variations (see posted pictures) To answer your question, yes the 21st DI was worn during the attack. I can't recall off hand but I believe that at the time of the attack the Hawaiian Division had split up into the two Divisions (the 24th and 25th Infantry Divisions) again I think Wailuna can give us a more precise answer to that question. Mahalo, John

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21st Infantry Regimental crest on his sweater

 

 

This is a great photo of the 21st IR Blazonry being used as an athletic patch. The posted image is an actual athletic patch that can be seen at the Tropic Lighting Museum up at Schofield Barracks.

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Closeup

 

 

This is a fantastic photo showing ammo belt loops. We've often wondered about this particular local made insignia by Capt. Welsh's No-So Company. It has yet to be identified along with another similar designed patch. We tend to believe that they are specialist ratings like what the Coast Artillery branch had worn during that time frame...

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Okay, I found the answer to when the Hawaiian Division converted to the two Infantry Division in an old response that I had made to a friend earlier last year:

Prior to WWII the WPD anticipated involvement with the worldly events and started to make adjustments. The WD started to breakdown the active squared division into more flexible triangle unit systems. One of the results was that the massive Hawaii Division was divided into two separate divisions. To carry on the legacy the Hawaii Division was redesignated on Aug 26, 1941 and became the 24th Division. This is why the 24th still to this day continue to wear the old Hawaii Division insignia.

 

 

The CG of the Hawaii Department (Gen. Short) was aware of the fact that he needed to form another division and on Oct 1, 1941 the 25th Division was activated. It wasn’t until Sep 25, 1944 before the 25th had an insignia officially approved. So there was a long period of time for creativity. Radio call signs were developed for the newly formed divisions and the 24th was recognized as Victory. The 25th call sign was Lightning. Note that it is Lightning and not Tropic Lightning. The Nickname came after hard fought battles in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.

 

 

During the initial formation period it had to been frustrating for the HQ Staff to distinguish between the two Divisions visually since they had to have all been wearing the old Hawaii Division insignia interchangeably. At some point I believe that at a staff level members of the 25th Division wore the Hawaii Department patch in addition to unauthorized Lightning insignia. The reason I state this is that I have a PFC Signal Corps tunic with a Hawaii Department patch on the shoulder and a small felt red disc with embroidered yellow border and lightning bolt from this time frame.

 

 

All the quads up in Schofield Barracks did have tailor and laundry shops and it would be hard to believe that the Chinese entrepreneurs didn’t capitalize on making new 25th Division insignia concepts for the soldiers. The patch that you have is what I believe to be a proto-type design for the 25th. As you know the construction and materials is 100% correct for the Pre-War years and is locally made here in Hawaii. There is no question in my mind that this color concept was not intentionally made.

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Salvage Sailor
The PFC's

 

and the Athletes in Army athletic gear

 

What I found interesting was the lack of divisional or Hawaiian department patches on all of the photos except this one, which cannot be seen clearly. Even in the inspection photos and the dress uniform photos there are no patches.

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Johan Willaert

OK, so let's put it this way...

 

What SSI, if any, would a GI from the 21IR have worn on his tan cotton shirt in Schofield Barracks on Dec 7th, 1941?

WOuld he still have worn the 21IR DUI on his Campaign Hat on December 7th, 1941?

 

Thanks,

 

Johan

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Salvage Sailor
What I found interesting was the lack of divisional or Hawaiian department patches on all of the photos except this one, which cannot be seen clearly. Even in the inspection photos and the dress uniform photos there are no patches.

 

This issue may actually help date the photos: In what year did the 24th ID/Hawaiian Department (which includes the 21st Regiment) start wearing patches on their dress uniforms and shirts?

 

The only soldiers who appear to be wearing any left arm patches are the band members, and this may be something totally different.

21st_Infantry_013.jpg

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OK, so let's put it this way...

 

What SSI, if any, would a GI from the 21IR have worn on his tan cotton shirt in Schofield Barracks on Dec 7th, 1941?

WOuld he still have worn the 21IR DUI on his Campaign Hat on December 7th, 1941?

 

Thanks,

 

Johan

 

Aloha,

He would have worn his 21st IR DI on his Campaign Hat. If EM his chevrons no DI's no Hawaiian Division patch however on his tunic, jacket or coat which ever you decide to call it He would have worn his collar brass, DI's, chervons, Hawaiian Division patch, service stripes if any, service ribbons if any and qualification badges if any. I'm going to call the shoulder sleeve insignia the Hawaiian Division patch since it was actually in a transitional state when it converted over to the 24th Infantry Division title. The mass produced machine embroidered patches of WWII would be your definate 24th ID patch but it would have been worn during the attack. Mahalo, John

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This issue may actually help date the photos: In what year did the 24th ID/Hawaiian Department (which includes the 21st Regiment) start wearing patches on their dress uniforms and shirts?

 

The only soldiers who appear to be wearing any left arm patches are the band members, and this may be something totally different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aloha All:

 

Soldiers up at Schofield started wearing the the Hawaiian Division patches as early as 1923. Capt. Welsh of the 11th Sig. Co. at Schofield Barracks had patented his quick removable devices for insignia in 1924 but had applied for the patent in 1923. See an example of his package item in my earlier posting. The Hawaiian Department SSI was indorsed by the WD on November 2, 1921 however the Hawaiian Division fell under its command along with Hawaiian Coast Artillery District. The 21stIR was a subordinate of the Hawaiian Division and would have only worn its patch. The Hawaiian Department was Headquarted at Fort Shafter.

 

If the band members of the 21st IR are wearing their service coats and there are SSI being worn it would have been the Hawaiian Division patch. It appears that all of these picture are from the 1930's.

 

Aloha,

 

John

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Johan Willaert

Here's an (not that good) image of a mannequin I put together for the 65th anniversary of the PH Attack in 2006.

Not visible, there's a 24ID SSI on the shirt sleeve and 21IR DUI on the Campaign Hat. I guess I'd better take the SSI off then....

Thanks again for the superb pictures...

post-22-0-96839700-1401825106.jpg

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El Bibliotecario

These photos are an absolute treasure.

 

You mentioned the FROM HERE TO ETERNITY film atmosphere of spit & polish vs. the informal scenes in your pics. In the novel James Jones mentions wearing CKC shooting jackets on the range--I have no idea what one looks like, but I wonder if that's what some of the troops are wearing which makes them look sloppy in comparison to the in-ranks photos.

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Salvage Sailor

Aloha Everyone,

 

I received a reply this morning from the Acting Director of the US Army Transportation Museum regarding the trucks in the photos of the 21st Infantry Regiment Motor Park

 

".....these appear to be Dodge 4x2 1/2-ton trucks. The

give-away is the door that opens backwards, the so-called "suicide

doors". The Army started buying Dodge trucks in 1934. From the uniforms

it seems the photos are from the late 1930's to early 1940's just prior

to the US entry into World War II."

 

So I think we're on the money that these photos were taken between 1935 and mid 1941.

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Salvage Sailor
These photos are an absolute treasure.

 

You mentioned the FROM HERE TO ETERNITY film atmosphere of spit & polish vs. the informal scenes in your pics. In the novel James Jones mentions wearing CKC shooting jackets on the range--I have no idea what one looks like, but I wonder if that's what some of the troops are wearing which makes them look sloppy in comparison to the in-ranks photos.

 

I am also wondering about those jackets - on the details of the rifle range photos you can see large white stripes on the backs of some shooters, never seen this before.

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Here's an (not that good) image of a mannequin I put together for the 65th anniversary of the PH Attack in 2006.

 

Not visible, there's a 24ID SSI on the shirt sleeve and 21IR DUI on the Campaign Hat. I guess I'd better take the SSI off then....

 

SchoffieldBarracks.jpg

 

Thanks again for the superb pictures...

 

Aloha Johan, If your shooting for a historical correct display I'd loose the patch especially if it is embroidered. The soldiers up in Schofield would have still worn the melton wool or felt constructed Hawaiian Division patches on their coats during the attack on Pearl....Otherwise, noboby would really care or know unless they are a stickler for details. Mahalo, John

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Johan Willaert
Aloha Johan, If your shooting for a historical correct display I'd loose the patch especially if it is embroidered. The soldiers up in Schofield would have still worn the melton wool or felt constructed Hawaiian Division patches on their coats during the attack on Pearl....

 

Thanks, Willdo!

 

On a side note, What are they wearing in the From Here to Eternity movie. Haven't watched it in a long time, but I seem to remember them wearing Hawaiian Dept SSI...

 

Johan

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El Bibliotecario
I am also wondering about those jackets - on the details of the rifle range photos you can see large white stripes on the backs of some shooters, never seen this before.

 

Obviously a novel isn't a valid reference, but James Jones did serve at Schofield Barracks in the prewar army, and he had an eye for detail--having previously read FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, when I arrived at Schofield Barracks, I felt as if I'd had been there before. Here's what Jones says about range attire:

 

"...the shooting jackets made out of the obsolete CKC blouses and ripped up the back for shoulder room..."

 

I havn't a clue as to what a CKC blouse is, and to complicate matters Jones elsewhere describes a foppish 2LT as wearing a tailored CKC blouse for a daytime golf date, which contradicts his statement that they were obsolete. But the ripped backs may explain the stripes up the back.

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...On a side note, What are they wearing in the From Here to Eternity movie. Haven't watched it in a long time, but I seem to remember them wearing Hawaiian Dept SSI...

The Hawaiian Department SSI was worn in the movie (but known as Central Pacific Base Command when the movie was actually filmed in 1952/53). As much of this movie was filmed at Schofield Barracks, it did (and does) appear to be highly realistic, although not necessarily completely accurate. The SSI is one inaccuracy. The Infantry organizations at Schofield Barracks did not wear the Hawaiian Dept. SSI. The Hawaiian Division SSI was worn until the division was separated into the 24th and 25th Infantry Divisions in October 1941, after which 24th ID continued to wear the former Hawaiian Division SSI (the 25th ID SSI was not approved until September 1944).

 

Why didn't the film get it right? The Army obviously cooperated in the filming of From Here to Eternity. However, by the time the movie was filmed, both divisions associated with Schofield and the events of late 1941 were long gone from Hawaii (and they were in Korea at the time). The Base Command SSI probably was the dominant insignia worn at Schofield in the early 1950s (by which time SSI wear on the khaki shirt was common practice). This was a level of detail that evidently did not register with either the filmmakers or the Army.

 

Here are a couple of other details from the film of militaria interest:

 

1st Sgt. Warden wears the 5-stripe chevron. The 6-stripe 1st. Sgt. chevron was not worn until Sept. 1942. The technical advisor nailed this one.

 

A DI is worn on campaign hats in some scenes, although I could never figure out which regiment it supposedly represents. The unit in the film is identified as Co. G, 219th Infantry (which does not exist). 19th Infantry was assigned to 24th ID on December 7, 1941. James Jones himself was assigned to Co. F, 27th Infantry, which was assigned to 25th ID on December 7th. I suppose the moviemaker's intention was to create a fictitious unit for the film.

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Johan Willaert

Thank you very much! Yes, Warden's stripes are a nice detail.

I, too, have been looking at hundreds of stills from the DVD to try to make out what DUI they wear on the hats... Never could see it clearly...

 

If all goes well, I will be visiting Oahu next year and I will try to visit the sights, both from the real attack and the movie...

 

Johan

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craig_pickrall
Obviously a novel isn't a valid reference, but James Jones did serve at Schofield Barracks in the prewar army, and he had an eye for detail--having previously read FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, when I arrived at Schofield Barracks, I felt as if I'd had been there before. Here's what Jones says about range attire:

 

"...the shooting jackets made out of the obsolete CKC blouses and ripped up the back for shoulder room..."

 

I havn't a clue as to what a CKC blouse is, and to complicate matters Jones elsewhere describes a foppish 2LT as wearing a tailored CKC blouse for a daytime golf date, which contradicts his statement that they were obsolete. But the ripped backs may explain the stripes up the back.

 

This is my best guess on CKC and I'll stick with it until someone tells us what it really means.

 

CKC = Cotton Khaki Cloth

 

Tropical worstered wool would have been available for dressy uniforms.

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...CKC = Cotton Khaki Cloth...

I second that. I remember looking up this abbreviation when I first read From Here to Eternity (many years ago: 1957? '58?) I vaguely recall finding "cotton, khaki, cloth" (or maybe the other way round) somewhere --- might be in the glossary of Boatner's Military Customs and Traditions. I'll dig my copy out and see if I can find it there. Meanwhile, I will stand by Craig.

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Salvage Sailor

Another photo from the grouping, probably the officer in charge of the 21st Infantry Regimental motor park - transportation.

 

21st_Infantry_002.jpg

 

 

close ups

 

21st_Infantry_002a.jpg

 

21st_Infantry_002b.jpg

 

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...This is my best guess on CKC and I'll stick with it until someone tells us what it really means....CKC = Cotton Khaki Cloth...
I second that....I vaguely recall finding "cotton, khaki, cloth" (or maybe the other way round) somewhere --- might be in the glossary of Boatner's Military Customs and Traditions. I'll dig my copy out and see if I can find it there...

Bingo, Craig.

 

From Boatner's Military Customs and Traditions (p. 115, ed. 1956 -- a great reference book, long out of print):

 

"CKC Khaki (from official designation "cloth, khaki, cotton")."

 

So, it was the other way round, but what the heck, that was a good call. As a USMF official, are you eligible to win the Sweepstake Prize?

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