tthen Posted September 20, 2015 Share #1 Posted September 20, 2015 Ok so I have been looking for a Trapdoor Springfield and have a question. There are numerous listings on Gunbroker, almost to many so I need to do some research but my question is this. Many of the listings show an FFL transfer not required but some require it. Is the trapdoor an antique and not requiring an FFL transfer or what. I looked on the BATF website and I believe it does not. I found one that I like but the seller says it requires either a C&R or an FFL, only black powder weapons can be shipped directly. Is the 45-70 not a black powder round? AM I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandomatic Posted September 20, 2015 Share #2 Posted September 20, 2015 Might be that the seller is a regular dealer and has it on their books as a "firearm" and intends to sell it as such. Something that might look fishy if they were audited and it was sold without transfer? Anything pre-1898 is considered an antique non-firearm, at least I always thought. I'll be interested in others' answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted September 20, 2015 Share #3 Posted September 20, 2015 I think Garandomatic is right on the money. I don't think an FFL transfer is required but some dealers just do it as standard practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunmore1774 Posted September 20, 2015 Share #4 Posted September 20, 2015 I agree. It's not needed, but some dealers don't know that and want to play it safe by requiring it. California is especially bad with that with their draconian gun laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72psb Posted September 20, 2015 Share #5 Posted September 20, 2015 Super gray area. The gun shop I work in will not do CR. In Illinois,if it shoots a projectile w/a powder charge,its a firearm and is treated like any other gun. If it can shoot currently manufactured ammo,its a firearm. The one thing to remember about any ATF regulation is that no intent has to be proven for a violation. Even a simple mistake can be used to prosecute. In the end,No dealer has to do any deal if he chooses not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tthen Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted September 20, 2015 OK men, thank you for all your input. Looks like the balls in his court and he does not want to play. I will not be patronizing him. I live in Washington state and all FFL transfers require about a 10% of the purchase price "use tax" plus the shop owners transfer fee. Usually about $30.00. Thank again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksp45 Posted September 20, 2015 Share #7 Posted September 20, 2015 it was my understanding that you needed a ffl for any weapon that shot ammo that is still in mfg,45-70 ammo made by remington is still made and safe to shoot in a trapdoor(and so noted on the box),also the black powder weapons that are exempt are all muzzleloaders and cap&ball revolvers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritz Posted September 20, 2015 Share #8 Posted September 20, 2015 No FFL needed on that one, pre 99 rifle and considered an antique. Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksp45 Posted September 21, 2015 Share #9 Posted September 21, 2015 batf rule states Fixed ammo guns need ffl,trapdoor is a fixed ammo weapon,go look it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommatt3 Posted September 21, 2015 Share #10 Posted September 21, 2015 Interstate shipment of firearms is covered by the 1968 gun Control Act. However, some states have passed laws requiring shipment to a dealer.(in direct violation of the 1968 GCA which preempts the field)..New Jersey passed a law in 1966 that only a state licensed dealer can ship or receive a firearm (the definition of 'firearm' is the NJ one and includes all guns that shoot, even BB guns!). Have the buyer certify that he may lawfully receive the firearm you are going to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in VA Posted September 21, 2015 Share #11 Posted September 21, 2015 batf rule states Fixed ammo guns need ffl,trapdoor is a fixed ammo weapon,go look it up Got a citation for that one? 18USC CH44 §921 (a)(3) defines "firearm." The definition specifically says "Such term shall not include and antique firearm." Going down the list of definitions under §921 we can see that §921 (a)(16) defines "antique firearm"; (a)(16)(A) says an antique firearm is "any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898." End of story. QED, it's not a federally-defined firearm and thus an FFL is not needed for the transfer. That said, plenty of licensees will still require a call-in and 4473 and plenty licensees log non-firearms (just like plenty of C&R licensees will log non-C&R firearms) but a licensee's personal preference doesn't make it law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tthen Posted September 22, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted September 22, 2015 Bill in Va , thank you for your research in this matter. I do appreciate it!! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meatcan Posted September 22, 2015 Share #13 Posted September 22, 2015 everyone who previously stated it's an antique and therefore does NOT require a FFL is correct. Even in Washington. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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